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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 4 2009, 07:07 AM   #31
gimpy117
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Re: Now that Romulus is history...

BriGuy wrote: View Post
the survivor count from Vulcan was in the range of 10,000 - substantially less than the survivor count from the new BSG.
well then they need to make a fleet for sure.... anybody got a spare battlestar?
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Old June 4 2009, 07:09 AM   #32
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Re: Now that Romulus is history...

gastrof wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
...One of the ones that comes to mind is "All Good Things," where the presence of an anti-time thingermajiggy creates three separate alternate timelines that all diverge from one-another yet co-exist...
Oh PLEASE!

That was nothing but Q messing with things, and had NOTHING to do with normal time travel.

Give another example. One that doesn't involve a being that can alter the fabric of the universe or put the starship Voyager inside someone's Christmas tree decoration.
First off, calm the frick down. We're talking about a movie, not having discussing US foreign policy. Nothing we're talking about is worth getting pissed off over.

Secondly, Q was very clear in saying that the only thing he did was create the anti-time and then let Picard bounce around between timelines. At no point does Q himself create or maintain those alternate timelines' existences. They are a natural consequence of the existence of anti-time.
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Old June 4 2009, 07:19 AM   #33
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Jax wrote: View Post
using TREK rules and cannon, far as the characters are concerned there prime universe has been changed.
Not this time, it hasn't.

Not only have the writers themselves said so, but Spock Prime's presence is proof enough.
The writers were commenting on productions, not canon when they said it's "still there". Things are all different BECAUSE Uncle Spock (and Nero) came back. In the script Uhura calls it an "alternate reality". We can expect all bets to be off with what has heretofore been known as 'canon'. Take a deep breath. Everything will be alright. It's just storytelling.

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Old June 4 2009, 07:24 AM   #34
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

xman wrote: View Post
The writers were commenting on productions, not canon when they said it's "still there".
1. Those writers are now the guys who decide what is and is not canonical.

2. If they say that a line onscreen meant that the prime timeline still exists, then that's what that line means. Period.

3. They have said that a canonical line about alternate timelines means that the original timeline still exists.

4. Ergo, canonically, the original timeline still exists.
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Old June 4 2009, 07:24 AM   #35
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Sci wrote: View Post
gastrof wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
...2. Trek has used both "our timeline was changed" and "we created a new timeline" versions of time travel.
Trek has never said that a new timeline left the original intact.

It's always been said the one original timeline was changed.

Please give me an example of even one episode where they felt a new offshoot timeline resulted from the past being changed.

If that'd ever been said, the characters would have been stuck in the offshoot, with no way of EVER getting home, since changing the past a second time would only have created a THIRD timeline, not returned them to the original.
I just cited one, gastroff -- "All Good Things." And then of course there's "Parallels," which establishes that alternate timelines branch off from the regular one all the time, as does "Relativity" -- to the point where they need to "temporally re-integrate" two versions of Captain Braxton. Then there was "The City on the Edge of Forever," wherein Kirk and Spock managed to change their own timeline, but wherein the prior timeline seems to have somehow continued to exist in some way, given as how Spock was able to gain information about the prior flow of history to appear on his tricorder from out of the ether. Then there were the Sphere Builders, who possessed the technology needed to observe and examine alternate timelines in order to determine how to manipulate the main one, which means that alternate timelines exist and branch off from the main one.

In essence: Trek has had it both ways, and there's no reason we can't interpret this new movie to have it both ways.
My take on AU Universes are they co exsist along side our universes and but do not directly interfere with each other unless you can hop inbetween them as we have seen in Mirror episodes. Time Travel is the travel in your own universe if you saw in those mirror eps they could always go to them but would always arrive in the same year as there own universe so thats not time travel. So you can only do time travel in the universe your in so Nero and Spock who gave no indication they were in a AU universe but there own and that entire Universe had been changed from the point Nero attacked the Kelvin...

but thats my take and we shall have to agree to disagree.
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Old June 4 2009, 07:29 AM   #36
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Jax wrote: View Post
My take on AU Universes are they co exsist along side our universes and but do not directly interfere with each other unless you can hop inbetween them as we have seen in Mirror episodes.
A tidbit to consider:

We have never seen anyone travel through time by directly going through a black hole in Trek before. As such, the potential consequences of time travel via such a method are completely unestablished. What if the consequence of time travel directly via a black hole -- not by coming close to one, as with TOS, but actually through it -- is to cause the era into which one emerges to then branch off into an alternate universe where it had previously been one?

This would be completely consistent with prior Trek installments' depictions of time travel even if we reject the idea of alternate timelines branching off from one-another normally, because this is an unprecedented time travel method.

So you can only do time travel in the universe your in
Canonically erroneous. "In A Mirror, Darkly" firmly established that the USS Defiant both travelled from the regular universe and travelled back through time from the regular universe's 2268 to the Mirror Universe's 2155.
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Old June 4 2009, 07:33 AM   #37
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Sci wrote: View Post
gastrof wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
...2. Trek has used both "our timeline was changed" and "we created a new timeline" versions of time travel.
Trek has never said that a new timeline left the original intact.

It's always been said the one original timeline was changed.

Please give me an example of even one episode where they felt a new offshoot timeline resulted from the past being changed.

If that'd ever been said, the characters would have been stuck in the offshoot, with no way of EVER getting home, since changing the past a second time would only have created a THIRD timeline, not returned them to the original.
I just cited one, gastroff -- "All Good Things." And then of course there's "Parallels," which establishes that alternate timelines branch off from the regular one all the time, as does "Relativity" -- to the point where they need to "temporally re-integrate" two versions of Captain Braxton. Then there was "The City on the Edge of Forever," wherein Kirk and Spock managed to change their own timeline, but wherein the prior timeline seems to have somehow continued to exist in some way, given as how Spock was able to gain information about the prior flow of history to appear on his tricorder from out of the ether. Then there were the Sphere Builders, who possessed the technology needed to observe and examine alternate timelines in order to determine how to manipulate the main one, which means that alternate timelines exist and branch off from the main one.

In essence: Trek has had it both ways, and there's no reason we can't interpret this new movie to have it both ways.
Works for me I for one intend to enjoy any and all TREK universes timelines etc and see no point in niggling over minuitae.Many excellent [and not so excellent] books have been written in the STAR TREK canon over the years and as far as I am concerned what we have before us is a slice of the multiverse to explore which contains a limitless potential. Some of us forget that in the final analysis this just entertainment.
Heresy and blasphemy to fanboys everywhere, I know but what of it?
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Old June 4 2009, 10:24 AM   #38
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Well in Star Trek Online here are the years 2387 and 2388.
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Old June 4 2009, 03:39 PM   #39
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Middle Earther wrote: View Post
We should have a forum devoted to timeline discussions. And the OP says "back in the 24th century"? Wouldn't it be "forward to the 24th century"? Just kiddin...
Yes,technically...but since what took place in the 24th century caused what happened in the 23rd I wrote the original title that way...
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Old June 4 2009, 03:56 PM   #40
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Middle Earther wrote: View Post
We should have a forum devoted to timeline discussions. And the OP says "back in the 24th century"? Wouldn't it be "forward to the 24th century"? Just kiddin...
Well from Spock Prime's perspective, it almost could count as 'back in the 24th Century' since his memories from the prime 24th Century are older that his memories in the alternate 23rd Century. So our poor Spock Prime's memory plays like this 'Prime 23rd -> Prime 24th -> Alternate 23rd.' That could lead to some mindscrews
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Old June 4 2009, 10:51 PM   #41
xman
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Sci wrote: View Post
xman wrote: View Post
The writers were commenting on productions, not canon when they said it's "still there".
1. Those writers are now the guys who decide what is and is not canonical.

2. If they say that a line onscreen meant that the prime timeline still exists, then that's what that line means. Period.

3. They have said that a canonical line about alternate timelines means that the original timeline still exists.

4. Ergo, canonically, the original timeline still exists.
Oh come on. We all know they were just telling 'those' TREKIES that they're not trying to piss on everything held dear for fourty years. Canon begone in nuTrek. ST0 is like a canon cannon!

Let me ask you all this:
If Uncle Spock travels forward to the 24th century what will he find? Will there be all the people he has ever known remembering the canon just as he does? Or will there be a completely different set of events (perhaps somewhat similar) in the canon?

X
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Old June 4 2009, 11:10 PM   #42
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

xman wrote: View Post
Let me ask you all this:
If Uncle Spock travels forward to the 24th century what will he find? Will there be all the people he has ever known remembering the canon just as he does? Or will there be a completely different set of events (perhaps somewhat similar) in the canon?
He'll probably find an incredibly advanced society with analogs to Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Data et cetera. There's a weird sense of "destiny" present in the film (Spock Prime is adamant about Kirk and nuSpock becoming friends, and not helping out, detrimentally I believe).

The novel "The Good That Men Do" mentions an alternate universe (mirror universe) that operates entirely differently but has direct analogs of many people. It's attributed by one character to a higher power (maybe "God") and I assume the same thing will apply to this alternate reality. Tuvok might never come to exist though (and Sakonna and Selar and maybe Saavik or Valeris).
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Old June 4 2009, 11:48 PM   #43
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Tim Thomason wrote: View Post
xman wrote: View Post
Let me ask you all this:
If Uncle Spock travels forward to the 24th century what will he find? Will there be all the people he has ever known remembering the canon just as he does? Or will there be a completely different set of events (perhaps somewhat similar) in the canon?
He'll probably find an incredibly advanced society with analogs to Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Data et cetera. ...
or ... NOT! He certainly won't find the planet Vulcan will he? No "higher power" gonna make that work. He might find that nothing resembles the time he left.
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Old June 5 2009, 12:22 AM   #44
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

xman wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
xman wrote: View Post
The writers were commenting on productions, not canon when they said it's "still there".
1. Those writers are now the guys who decide what is and is not canonical.

2. If they say that a line onscreen meant that the prime timeline still exists, then that's what that line means. Period.

3. They have said that a canonical line about alternate timelines means that the original timeline still exists.

4. Ergo, canonically, the original timeline still exists.
Oh come on. We all know they were just telling 'those' TREKIES that they're not trying to piss on everything held dear for fourty years.
I'm not sure what you mean. Orci and Kurtzman found a way to tell a new version of the TOS story that gave them the creative freedom they would lack in the prime continuity without completely disregarding that continuity. I don't know why you insist on thinking that they meant to destroy that continuity or don't really care about it, especially since they've made it clear that they became Trek fans through TNG, not TOS.

They came up with a creative solution that gave them the creative freedom to do TOS according to a new interpretation whilst still allowing future Trek stories to be told in the original continuity. What's wrong with that?

Canon begone in nuTrek. ST0 is like a canon cannon!
You seem to misunderstand the definition of the term "canon."

"Canon" does not refer to a shared continuity in which multiple stories are set. That's what "continuity" means (or, if you're talking from an in-universe POV, "timeline"). A canon is simply a collection of stories created by a common creator or owner. Sherlock Holmes is the perfect example; there is a "Sherlock Holmes canon" of the four novels and 56 short stories about Sherlock Holmes written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, but there are also numerous non-canonical stories about Holmes written by later writers. Those stories might be completely compatible in terms of continuity with the canonical stories, but it is simply the fact that they weren't written by Conan Doyle that makes them non-canonical.

In other words, the canon is simply the body of stories upon which later stories are based. That's it.

Star Trek has a canon, and this new film is part of that canon. Star Trek also has two major continuities, the original TOS/TNG continuity, and this nuTrek continuity. But the canon has always had other continuities as well -- the Mirror Universe, for example, or the various alternate timelines that have been overwritten ("Year of Hell," for instance, is a canonical story that is not part of the prime continuity since it got the Reset Button), and the alternate timelines that exist parallel to the prime timeline/continuity.

In other words, this new film is not a "canon cannon." It's not "Canon-B-Gone." It's simply a film that shifts our focus as the audience from the prime continuity to a new one.

Let me ask you all this:

If Uncle Spock travels forward to the 24th century what will he find? Will there be all the people he has ever known remembering the canon just as he does? Or will there be a completely different set of events (perhaps somewhat similar) in the canon?
That would depend upon which 24th Century he travels to -- the 24th Century of the prime timeline, or the 24th Century of this new timeline (which Memory Alpha refers to as the Alternate Reality). I rather imagine that if he were able to travel through that black hole he came through, he'd wind up back in the prime 24th Century.
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Old June 5 2009, 12:33 AM   #45
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Re: Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Its the Back II the Future paradox-if Spock slingshots around a sun to the 24th century in the Alternate Timeline,he's gonna be just as lost,as that 24th century will be something different than what he left.

To 'return' to his home reality,hed have to jump back to Neros arrival and destroy the Narada before going 'back to the future' -and even then things may not be 100% normal,but at least Vulcan will still exist,the Kelvin finished its tour,George Kirk raises his son,etc..
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