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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old May 29 2009, 07:53 PM   #1486
startrekwatcher
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'd rank the seasons:

4
6/1
5
7/2
3
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Old May 29 2009, 07:59 PM   #1487
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'd rank the seasons:
1
2
4
3
5
6
7

That said, I still like the show at season 7.
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Old May 29 2009, 08:47 PM   #1488
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

5
4
6
1
2
7
3
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Old May 29 2009, 10:51 PM   #1489
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Killing Game, Part 1 (*)

There is a good reason why TNG and DS9 are my two favourite Trek series; they're the only ones that don't feature space nazis.

First problem with the episode; the Hirogen capture the ship OFF-SCREEN! That is unbelievably annoying. But my biggest problem with the episode is how everything is so contrived in order to get the story to work at all. The Hirogen somehow learn about the holodecks and decide to use them to hunt Voyager's crew and apparently they have a magic device which causes the crew to think they are in Nazi occupied France, and the holodecks have been extended across multiple decks in order to fit everybody, and holo-emitters have been placed all over the ship... It doesn't matter how unrealistically stupid a plot-point is, if it helps the writers get where they are going then they'll shove it in.

I'd say that there is a good idea underlying this episode, the idea that the Hirogen must evolve past hunting in order to survive, but I honestly think that this is just an excuse for space nazis. And I'm sure there will be some people who will enjoy this episode for the "fun" action, but I find the situation so outlandish that I just cannot get into it.

I had intended to watch both episodes in one sitting, but the the end of the first hour I couldn't take any more so I'll come back to it in a day or two.
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Old May 29 2009, 11:08 PM   #1490
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

You know what would have made me like The Killing Game more? If they'd taken the opportunity to explore something like WWIII or the Cardassian border conflicts... Something from our future, their past, let us experience a time frame of Star Trek history that we have little to no experience with.

Granted, the capture of Voyager entirely off screen with no build up to the event is rather irritating as well, but the fact that they had an opportunity to experience a piece of history and instead opt to play a piece of OUR history grates me more - we gain no new information on the characters or the history of the 24th century here. It's why one of my favorites of the 'go back in time' episodes is DS9's Past Tense, going to a time that is past for the characters but still the future for the audience.
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Old May 29 2009, 11:13 PM   #1491
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Only one star for The Killing game? I would've given at least 3,5 stars.
Granted, space nazis are a stupid concept, but I tend to like episodes they are in.
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Old May 29 2009, 11:13 PM   #1492
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

No space Nazis in TNG or DS9? Uh, the CARDIES!!
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Old May 29 2009, 11:15 PM   #1493
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
It's why one of my favorites of the 'go back in time' episodes is DS9's Past Tense, going to a time that is past for the characters but still the future for the audience.
Two of the best (and most important) episodes in all of Star Trek, if you ask me.
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Old May 29 2009, 11:27 PM   #1494
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Granted, the capture of Voyager entirely off screen with no build up to the event is rather irritating as well, but the fact that they had an opportunity to experience a piece of history and instead opt to play a piece of OUR history grates me more - we gain no new information on the characters or the history of the 24th century here.
So true, and it is something I hadn't even thought about. There is so much time in the Trek universe that we know nothing about and I would prefer to see a story expanding that than seeing the nazis again.

destro wrote: View Post
No space Nazis in TNG or DS9? Uh, the CARDIES!!
The Cardies weren't literal nazis. They may have been an oppressive dictatorship bent on conquest, but they didn't wear jackboots and swastika arm-bands.
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Old May 30 2009, 01:14 AM   #1495
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Killing Game--I really can't separate these two hours out so I'm going to grade them as a whole. They get 2.5 stars out of 4.

I was actually looking forward to this telefilm given the track record of other Braga & Menosky shows but I have to say it was a little underwhelming.

I think it has the same problem in some ways as the new Trek film. I don't mind a good two hour mindless action adventure with no social commentary or deep characterizations but you still need solid writing and a good idea of what you are doing with a strong plot to anchor the story. Action in a vacuum doesn't cut it. Some of the ideas were neat--the way Roxann got to show off her pregnancy, the crew dressing up, all out action. But overall, it just got bogged down in a bunch of vignettes that were hit-or-miss. At some point it just got to be too much with it coming at you with one crisis after another. And I'm not sure the parallel they were going for worked that well between the Nazis and Hirogen. In some ways I always felt that the Nazi parallel was stronger with the Dominion.

Still, I don't mind it too much. I can watch it in stretches. It has nice production values and it isn't awful.
GodBen wrote: View Post
There is a good reason why TNG and DS9 are my two favourite Trek series; they're the only ones that don't feature space nazis.
Oh c'mon. These really aren't space nazis. They are just simply Hirogen dressed up as such. But then again I was one of the few that wasn't in an uproar over ENT's Nazi cliffhanger.
the Hirogen capture the ship OFF-SCREEN! That is unbelievably annoying.
REally? I didn't mind that the episode began in media res. We've seen Voyager commandeered before("Basics") and I think it worked out better letting us see the crew having been at this for some time.
But my biggest problem with the episode is how everything is so contrived in order to get the story to work at all. The Hirogen somehow learn about the holodecks and decide to use them to hunt Voyager's crew and apparently they have a magic device which causes the crew to think they are in Nazi occupied France
I don't see those things as contrived. Is it really hard to believe that with all the Trek gadgets we've seen that there isn't a device that could alter memories and identities. It was necessary for the story andpersonally I was fine with it.
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Old May 30 2009, 02:02 AM   #1496
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
Her finding out about the Maquis situation was obviously not relevant for the episode's storyline. But obviously she became aware of the situation at some point. I don't know why such a minor thing should be spelled out and chewed for a viewer, when it doesn't really make the story in the episode going further.

Naturally I would have liked to see a scene like that, but I can very well live without.
I would have liked to see just one scene where she said to Chakotay, "You know, I can see your point."


Their relationship was awfully one-sided. He supports her. He worships her (if the Angry Warrior speech is any indication). He gives a lot. What does she give?
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Old May 30 2009, 04:33 AM   #1497
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

teya wrote: View Post
Tachyon wrote: View Post
Her finding out about the Maquis situation was obviously not relevant for the episode's storyline. But obviously she became aware of the situation at some point. I don't know why such a minor thing should be spelled out and chewed for a viewer, when it doesn't really make the story in the episode going further.

Naturally I would have liked to see a scene like that, but I can very well live without.
I would have liked to see just one scene where she said to Chakotay, "You know, I can see your point."


Their relationship was awfully one-sided. He supports her. He worships her (if the Angry Warrior speech is any indication). He gives a lot. What does she give?
Obviously more than enough since he kept giving his support to her.


What comes to Killing Game, not my fav either. But it could have been worse. So I guess I would give it... **½.
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Old May 30 2009, 12:16 PM   #1498
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Bah, we could have got an epic action story, a game of cat and mouse with Voyager being perceived as the greatest prey in recent times. Couple that with the need for change in Hirogen society and this telefilm could have been quite nice. Instead we just see the crew screwing around the Holodeck...for two hours!

A great letdown...
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Old May 30 2009, 12:57 PM   #1499
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I kinda enjoy this episode, although it is highly flawed.

The only thing better than space nazis is zombie nazis!
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Old May 31 2009, 12:52 AM   #1500
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Dane_Whitman wrote: View Post
5
4
6
1
2
7
3
That's pretty much my rating, too.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Killing Game, Part 1 (*)
{snip}
I'd say that there is a good idea underlying this episode, the idea that the Hirogen must evolve past hunting in order to survive, but I honestly think that this is just an excuse for space nazis. And I'm sure there will be some people who will enjoy this episode for the "fun" action, but I find the situation so outlandish that I just cannot get into it.

I had intended to watch both episodes in one sitting, but the the end of the first hour I couldn't take any more so I'll come back to it in a day or two.
They did originally air them both together, you know.

But you make very good points regarding why it's such an outlandish situation. I would have liked to have seen the Hirogen actually capture the ship, too, but the writers might have felt it would have been too much of a "Basics" repeat.

That said, I'd have still given it two stars myself. I find the Hirogen Alpha character rather compelling. Also, I think the first part holds up better than the second part...

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
You know what would have made me like The Killing Game more? If they'd taken the opportunity to explore something like WWIII or the Cardassian border conflicts... Something from our future, their past, let us experience a time frame of Star Trek history that we have little to no experience with.

Granted, the capture of Voyager entirely off screen with no build up to the event is rather irritating as well, but the fact that they had an opportunity to experience a piece of history and instead opt to play a piece of OUR history grates me more - we gain no new information on the characters or the history of the 24th century here. It's why one of my favorites of the 'go back in time' episodes is DS9's Past Tense, going to a time that is past for the characters but still the future for the audience.
Hear, hear!
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