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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 706 62.70%
Above Average 213 18.92%
Average 84 7.46%
Below Average 46 4.09%
Poor 77 6.84%
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Old May 22 2009, 02:36 AM   #1981
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

buzzknox wrote: View Post
I'm not sure why I'm adding my two cents but ah, well.

I've been a lifelong fan of Trek. I've loved it when it was just a money making venture that happened to explore the Cold War or the social topic in space in the guise of science fiction. I loved it when it was filled with acting that ranged from excellent to mediocre, campiness, torn shirts, and no effort to be truly scientific. I loved it when it matured into something that, unfortunately, became a religion to some, acting that ranged from excellent to bad, efforts to invoke science that sometimes worked and sometimes didn't, when the concepts ranged from the sublime to the moronic, and when the writers couldn't figure out how thing should work even within the same series. I've even loved Trek when the characters (from TOS through the movies to Enterprise) committed crimes (stealing ships, assassinations, destruction of planetary biospheres, etc) to suit themselves or some higher purpose.

That being said, I loved this movie. After watching it, I was planning to rewatch TMP to experience again the reveal of 1701-A. I was planning on which of my favorite TOS novels I'd reread and in what order. The reason? The movie captured the two things that were best about ST once you got past the (sometimes screwed up) technology, effects, plotholes, etc: the crew and the sense of adventure shared by the crew and the audience.

If you want to argue about utopias, humanity becoming the "New Man" or the like, remember that this was tacked onto TOS after it went off the air. TOS was about adventure and people facing it together (it was about making money principally but let's forego that for now). The plots were "drawn from the headlines" and the crew acted as people tend to do in real world situations: 1) they screwed up and muddled through, 2) they excelled, or 3) some combination of the above. Seems like there was a movie that came out May 9, 2009, that basically had that as the theme. If that doesn't fit within retroactively applied visions of TOS, or the (occasionally hamfisted) efforts to mold subsequent series in that image, oh well.
Yes. All this "stuff" was tacked on AFTER TOS went off the air. It was a great show---but these utopian messages were really only a fraction of the content of the program. And Kirk and or Bones were foils and dissenters against some of it-the PC diatribes usually were made by Spock. Kirk or Bones were usually a stand in for the average Joe in the audience. In the end Spock was often right--but still the opposing views were heard and sometimes Spock was wrong, sort of.

With TNG you had a whole crew drinking the kool-aid of a sort of pseudo-socialist agenda with little dissent. Picard's smugness told the audience he fully expected everyone to agree with his post-post-modern world view.

People will say "look to Roddenberry," but TOS in reality never put to the screen a pure Roddenberry concept---the final product was an amalgamation of different people's input.
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Old May 22 2009, 02:47 AM   #1982
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Bobatiel wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
suarezguy wrote: View Post
Very disappointed. Pike, Spock and Chekov were pretty good, McCoy was OK, but the story was too simple and I didn't like Kirk's insubordination (they have a ready room so that there aren't debates on the bridge).
if you're going to claim this film isn't TOS-like per se; it would help if you actually WATCHED a TOS episode, as the NCC-1701 has NEVER had a 'ready room' on ore near the bridge, ever.
And anybody who watches TOS knows that Kirk has a history of insubordination. It's completely in character.
yep with tribbles being one of the best examples and galileo 7 up there too.
in conscience of the king kirk arranges to strand the company of players and when spock reminds him it is 8 light years out of the way kirk snaps.
If my memory needs refreshing, Mister Spock, I'll ask you for it. In the meantime, follow my orders
and while they did have a briefing room it was on another floor so if they were in the midst of a crisis they would have it out on the bridge.

bones and jim right from the bat go at it on the bridge in the corbomite maneuver.
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Old May 22 2009, 06:55 AM   #1983
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

It was fun, but as "Star Trek" it was disappointing. There was plenty of humor in the old show -- Leonard Nimoy had a wonderfully dry wit -- and it could be lighthearted, even downright silly, but most of the time it portrayed serious adults dealing with dangerous situations.

This felt like a comic book version of the show. Six billion Vulcans die --boohoo, what happens next? Scotty in the reagent tube was like a scene from the Jetsons.

I liked most of the actors. Karl Urban nailed Leonard McCoy. Zachary Quinto and Chris Pine did a good job. But as far as I'm concerned, Manny Coto has done the best job of modernizing Trek while keeping its original spirit, and I wish he had done the movie.
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Old May 22 2009, 07:22 AM   #1984
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Stanley wrote: View Post
But as far as I'm concerned, Manny Coto has done the best job of modernizing Trek while keeping its original spirit, and I wish he had done the movie.
I definitely agree that Coto, the Reeves-Stevenses and Mike Sussman did a much better job in capturing the TOS feel in season four. XI just felt like another standard action flick with a lot of sound & fury that just used the recognizable aesthetics of Trek and a bunch of pointless namedropping unlike season four where the writers used previously mentioned characters or elements in service of the story.

I would prefer that Abrams would use different writers other than Orci & Kurtzman. The script coupled with the interviews I've read from them don't fill me with a great deal of confidence. There are even more talented writers Abrams has worked with and could use such as Damon Lindeloff and Carlton Cuse--they've demonstrated they can embrace continuity, pay attention to details, write a solid plot arc and even have time for characters.
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Old May 22 2009, 12:35 PM   #1985
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Okay... here's my two cents...

First, I have to admit that I've always been more of a casual fan...
While I'm too young to have seen TOS when it first aired I still love it... but I never really got into TNG and the shows that came after it... (I was always waiting for Kirk and Spock to suddenly turn around a corner... )

I wasn't convinced a new movie with young actors playing these iconic characters could be a good idea but Surprise! It works.

The movie is fast paced, funny and visually stunning (The new Enterprise is very beautiful but HUGE compared to TOS ) I like the new bridge and that everything is shiny brand-spanking new
The new actors all do a phantastic job... my personal favourite being Z. Quinto who is a perfect younger Spock (And how mindblowing for Z. Quinto to meet the "real" Spock/L. Nimoy)

Yes, there are plot holes... Kirk meeting old Spock on some random ice planet come on! And who in their right mind would give the Federation's most important ship to a bunch of cadets in a time of crisis???
And I would have liked to see more about the new crew getting to know each other and their new ship.

Then there's the alternative timeline thing... I've read a few very angry posts about J.J. Abrams killing ST etc.
I really don't get it. Alternative timelines and mirror universes aren't exactly new to ST... it's been done before dozens of times. And if you really want to be nitpicky you'd have to argue that there *is* no "real" timeline. Every episode/movie with time travel etc. has altered the timeline and created a whole "new" universe (Travelling back in time to fetch a few whales, anyone?).
And let's be honest... the last movie and show weren't exactly a smashing success... Abrams knew that for ST to survive he needed to "upgrade" it and to make it watchable for non-fans who don't know a Klingon from a Vulcan (yet). Including all the facts and dates etc. from the "original" timeline would simply have been too much.

So, yes, I like the new movie very much. It's a perfect new beginning and I hope we'll get to see more soon.
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Old May 22 2009, 01:17 PM   #1986
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Yay! Page 100! And they said it couldn't be done!

Well, not really. But it's the thought that counts.
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Old May 22 2009, 01:31 PM   #1987
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Australis wrote: View Post
Yay! Page 100! And they said it couldn't be done!

Well, not really. But it's the thought that counts.
I'm only on page 50... get back to me in 50 pages.
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Old May 22 2009, 02:41 PM   #1988
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Stanley wrote: View Post
It was fun, but as "Star Trek" it was disappointing. There was plenty of humor in the old show -- Leonard Nimoy had a wonderfully dry wit -- and it could be lighthearted, even downright silly, but most of the time it portrayed serious adults dealing with dangerous situations.

This felt like a comic book version of the show. Six billion Vulcans die --boohoo, what happens next? Scotty in the reagent tube was like a scene from the Jetsons.
Prime Spock's dry wit only came at the middle of the first season of TOS, when his friendship with Kirk was established.
They are at each other throat (figuratively and litterally!) for most of the movie so you can't have that. Though you start to have a bit of it at the end, for instance when Kirk slaps Spock's shoulder saying "We are starting to understand each other" (paraphrasing, French dubbed). Spock's face at the familiar gesture is priceless
I also love the banter in TOS (I'm currently transcribing a lot of it as I rewatch the episodes) but I'm waiting for the second movie to see that. If Abrams directs it (and I hope he does), I'm sure there will be some banter and the actors can certainly pull it off.
There are already great funny moments between Spock and McKoy in this movie. I don't know how it is in the original version, but in French Bones says to Spock "What Vulcan fly has stung you?!" and he says "Green-blooded mule" when Spock has left. It was just like watching a TOS episode Karl Urban is just perfect as Bones.

As for dealing with Vulcan's destruction, I have the same answer: wait for the next movie. This one was to establish the alternate reality, they couldn't cram everything in it (though I agree with you on the Scotty in the tube scene. Waste of time).
Romulus is still there in this reality and with an important member of the Federation seriously crippled, I'm willing to bet that the Romulans aren't going to sit around chating about the weather, especially assuming that in this reality, a war against the Romulans has already taken place too.
At least that's one of the things we could see in the next movie.
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Old May 22 2009, 04:45 PM   #1989
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Noname Given wrote: View Post
suarezguy wrote: View Post
Very disappointed. Pike, Spock and Chekov were pretty good, McCoy was OK, but the story was too simple and I didn't like Kirk's insubordination (they have a ready room so that there aren't debates on the bridge).
if you're going to claim this film isn't TOS-like per se; it would help if you actually WATCHED a TOS episode, as the NCC-1701 has NEVER had a 'ready room' on ore near the bridge, ever.
They had a conference room in WNMHGB though; Kirk needed to argue on the bridge the first time but on other occasions it seemed that would have been a much better place to air differences.

Sarek telling young Spock he could choose either path was different but OK; his later-on telling Spock that he could feel/use some emotions (when the specific emotion that was being discussed was choke-inducing rage) was too much; there weren't ideas or character developments other than Spock growing more comfortable with the bitterness.
Kirk leaping from finishing training to captaincy in one mission, over those who had worked for a good deal longer, also felt like a betrayal of how orderly, fair and professional Starfleet should be.

The idea of Spock growing more human over time is interesting but I thought Nimoy took it too far, he seemed to be having too much fun aside from the very-in-character "my planet has just been destroyed ..." line. I haven't seen "Unification" in a long time, but I think his ease in TUC was just with that particular crew; even though he's addressing younger versions of Kirk and himself in this film, it didn't work.

I also mistakenly thought Delta Vega was Ilia's homeworld.

OTOH, I thought Saldana and Quinto had good chemistry and I enjoyed Kirk's surprise/jealousy.
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Old May 22 2009, 04:59 PM   #1990
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Stanley wrote: View Post
It was fun, but as "Star Trek" it was disappointing. There was plenty of humor in the old show -- Leonard Nimoy had a wonderfully dry wit -- and it could be lighthearted, even downright silly, but most of the time it portrayed serious adults dealing with dangerous situations.
The only reason I quote this is because after seeing the new movie I have gone back and started watching my TOS DvD's again. Most of the episodes in the second season are very much like this movie. Serious situation perhaps, but isn't someone coming to destory your planet serious?

Just go watch Shore Leave. It is a great example of how I think they captured the characters essence in this new movie.
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Old May 22 2009, 05:48 PM   #1991
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

one of the worst was in the changling when a whole system was destroyed but at the end they were yucking it up.
at least in the movie things were more subtle.

spocks wit especially directed at kirk was there pretty early on..

from corbomite manauver

SPOCK: Speculate? No. Logically, we'll discover the intelligence which sent out the cube.
KIRK: Intelligence different from ours or superior?
SPOCK: Probably both, and if you're asking the logical decision to make
KIRK: No, I'm not. The mission of the Enterprise is to seek out and contact alien life.
SPOCK: Has it occurred to you that there's a certain inefficiency in constantly questioning me on things you've already made up your mind about?
KIRK: It gives me emotional security
SPOCK: And when the Captain arrives he will expect a full report on
BAILEY: The cube's range and position. I'll have it by then. Raising my voice back there doesn't mean I was scared or couldn't do my job. It means I happen to have a human thing called an adrenaline gland.
SPOCK: It does sound most inconvenient, however. Have you considered having it removed?
BAILEY: Very funny.
SULU: You try to cross brains with Spock, he'll cut you to pieces every time
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Old May 23 2009, 01:07 AM   #1992
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

This movie has surpassed all my expectations.

Star Trek (2009) is now the benchmark for all movies to follow.

But TWOK and FC are following very closely behind.
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Old May 23 2009, 03:37 PM   #1993
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

I finally saw this. I used to be a huge Star Tre fan before Rick Berman and Brannon Braga slowly destroyed the franchise with Voyager and Enterprise.

First of al, I loved Chekov and Scotty. Kirk, McCoy, Sulu and especially Spock were also excellent.

But I really did not like this film. Due to holidays I was delayed in getting to see it, and was doing my best to avoid spoilers on the web, but where it was referenced on all sorts of forums, the overall consensus was that it was, at the very least, very good, if not, in fact, excellent.

With this sort of anticipation, I was then HUGELY disappointed. While each performance was great, and the production values were high, the whole plot was lazy and contrived. Nero was a hugely pointless villain.

My synopsis of the film is as thus:

In the TNG future, a star close to Romulus is about to go nova. I'm not an astrophysicist but I'm pretty sure that it would be quite obvious for THOUSANDS of years that the star was about to go nova, long before the original Vulcans settled there.

Anyway, rather than get the brightest minds that both the Federation and Romulus have to solve the problem they get one man, a pretty old one at that, to sort the problem. Maybe evacuating the planet might have been a useful precaution? And since the Romulan Star Empire use quantum singularities (mini black holes) to power their ships why the hell do they need Federation sourced red matter?

Spock was obviously having an afternoon nap, or troubled with intractable prostatism because he was bit late injecting the red matter. Romulus got destroyed, but what the heck, let's inject that stuff anyway. (Given that Spock was living on Romulus by the time of the TNG era I'm wondering if he got really pissed off and let the planet get destroyed).

Nero was obviously watching nearby, rather than actually going to rescue his wife (who appeared human). Presumably as a miner, he was part of some sort of trade union that prevented him doing rescue work, as that's not part of his contract. He watches his planet and pregnant wife get fried and he's a pit pissed.

Both Spock and the Nerada get pulled into a black hole, which rather than crushing them to a microscopic pea pulls them back in time. The first thing Nero sees on going through the singularity is an ancient (to him) Starfleet vessel. He opens fire but rather than destroying it completely and getting on with the mission of finding Spock (who was just nearby a moment ago) asks their captain to come over for tea and scones.

Then he spends the next 25 years waiting for Spock to come through the anomaly. Hello? How long would you wait? I'd give up after a day or two. Anyhow, the rest of Nero's crew, who I assume also should be part of a miner trade union go along with this. As opposed to going home, betting on the Romulan Superbowl and marrying their grandmothers.

Spock eventually comes through. Kill him after all this time? Nah. Why not just put him on Vulcan's nearbying planet, a stones throw from a Starfleet base and let him watch his planet die from having a black hole at its core. Presumambly this planet doesn't rotate on its own axis so as to guarantee that Spock would actually not be on the WRONG side of the planet when Vulcan croaked.

On Vulcan, their greatest minds are standing in a crumbling cave, meditating and thinking about to have for dinner, while their planet starts to disintegrate.

Meanwhile back on Earth the brand new flagship is launched with a crew of mostly cadets? A 3rd year (not FINAL year) student is made the 1st Officer when Pike goes over for tea and scones. Hellllloooooo? Where are all the officers? Heck, where are all the crew who actually have trained to run the ship?

Back at Hoth, future Spock risks the fate of the entire federation just so that his past younger self (who now constitutes a significant proportion of the Vulcan race) can get a bit of experience of dealing with humans on a day to day basis.

And isn't convenient that Scotty, who has yet to actually prove he is a genius other than copying some future Vulcan, just happens to be next door?

The Trek rules of time travel are thrown out the window in this one, in that most other time travel plots always involve the same timeline. Alternate realities do exist in the Trek universe, but once their residents cross over into our universe, it usually means its curtains for them (e.g. "Parallels" characters, Enterprise C crew and the alternate Miles O'Brien from "Visionary").

Back at the final fight the Nerada gets a full dose of red matter. A drop of this stuff can destroy a planet, but the whole lot just makes you get stuck in first gear. Kirk offers to help, Nero politely refuses so Kirk massacres them in a move akin to German fighter planes raking the cold and wet Titanic survivors with bullets a la Pearl Harbor.

In fact, rather than back away first and just drop some torpedoes into the gravity well, he flies TOWARDS the Nerada and the black hole to kill them!!!???!!!!

For this genocidal act Kirk gets promoted to CAPTAIN straight from third year!!!!! No final year, no ensign, no Lietenant j.g., no lietenant, no lietenant commander, no commander. Nope, staright to captain. Of the flagship of the fleet. In what reality or career would this ever happen?

Hmmm..... I think that's me done. This film wasn't a patch on First Contact, and I appreciate I'm in the minority on this one, wasn't a patch on Nemesis.

I can't believe I'm the only Trekkie to feel this way, but I'm not prepared at this late stage to sift through thousands of posts to find out.

Three of my friends who are casual Trekkies seemed to really like it. My wife, a big Star Wars fan, who hates Trek came out fuming because se was promised a film that would convert her. It didn't. She still hates all Star Trek. With that straw poll, I'm not sure what this film has actually achieved other than pissing off the die-hards, bringing in the casuals, and not making any difference to the haters.

And it annoys me that TNG and DS9 have been essentially wiped from existence, but the woeful Enterprise is left intact.
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Old May 23 2009, 03:46 PM   #1994
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

drmick wrote: View Post
With that straw poll, I'm not sure what this film has actually achieved other than pissing off the die-hards, bringing in the casuals, and not making any difference to the haters.

And it annoys me that TNG and DS9 have been essentially wiped from existence, but the woeful Enterprise is left intact.
Stick around and you'll find that most "die-hards" (I consider anyone who has watched all iterations of Trek multiple times, particularly if they've been watching it since the 70s (or before) to be "die-hards) actually quite enjoyed the movie (I'm one of them, BTW--been watching since 1973). And the story on screen quite clearly shows that neither TNG nor DS9 have been "wiped from existence". The new timeline is parallel to, not overwriting, the "prime timeline".

I will not try to dissuade you from your dislike of the film (you are free to like or dislike it as you wish) but do not assume that only "casuals" like the film (not true) and that all of TNG etc. is "overwritten" (also not true).
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Old May 23 2009, 03:58 PM   #1995
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

drmick wrote: View Post
On Vulcan, their greatest minds are standing in a crumbling cave, meditating and thinking about to have for dinner, while their planet starts to disintegrate.
I actually thought they were gathered there absorbing the katras of the greatest minds of Vulcan from the various katric arks stored in the ancient chamber before they were destroyed. Now, all that knowledge about science, mysticism, history can be used to rebuild their civilization.
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