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Old May 22 2009, 07:25 AM   #1396
angel
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I need the money to buy crack and this thread brings in a nice steady revenue stream by...

Damn, I didn't think this plan through. That's it, I'm going back to stealing underpants!



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Old May 22 2009, 07:30 AM   #1397
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Seriously, I'm rewatching Voyager because I'm trying to give it a fair shot after years of poking fun at it. There are things about Voyager that I like, this season in particular has had many good episodes, and a diamond in the rough is still a diamond. Besides, many Voyager fans seem to enjoy reading this thread and I can't stop now in case they get angry at me and decide to report me to the police for attempting to buy crack from them.

Fair dos godben.......... anyway i have read this thread through from the start and have really enjoyed it !
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Old May 22 2009, 07:42 AM   #1398
Tachyon
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Voyager had a great opportunity to put a group of humans in real danger and have them display stoicism in the face of constant peril. Having the crew pull together and display the better sides of their nature even under the constant threat of danger, it would have made for a perfect Star Trek series. But there was never that sense throughout the show, this honestly felt like just another Federation starship to me.
Because it was another Federation star ship.

I think the main difference here, between Voyager and BSG, can be summarized like this: BSG was more about survival than journey and Voyager was more about the journey than survival. Both had elements from both, but the emphasis made the two very different.

So there. Tachyon has spoken.


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Old May 22 2009, 07:44 AM   #1399
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Another problem that wasn't properly explored with holograms is their danger. Yes, there was that ship genocide episode, and the holograms who killed the hunters, but I'm talking full-out quadrant domination.

Think about it. Holograms don't need nourishment or sleep, can learn information instantly, have infallible memories, and are even impervious to physical harm. The only way you can kill a hologram is by destroying its emitter, but that's certainly a minor flaw compared to all the ways in which you can kill a human. Now consider hologram reproduction. All you need is to be able to make 1 EMH-level holo-program, get these mass manufactured, and you could have billions of holo-soldiers being produced every day. So long as you program them correctly, their loyalties will never waver. Basically, you could have a holo-army as deadly as the Jem Hadar, but in much vaster supply. Unless you could generate widespread holo-matrix viruses, they'd be absolutely unstoppable.

This is just one branch of speculation. Look how much the EMH out-performs the average doctor. Imagine the kind of job loss a planet would experience when holograms can perform their tasks far more efficiently, and don't demand pay. So long as holo-matrices can be manufactured at a cheap price, you have a serious economic problem on your hands.

Well, while I'm going on this tangent, think about how holodecks make it possible to live out elaborate fantasies at the touch of a button. Why join star fleet when you can emulate the entire experience with a holo-program? Why develop relationships when you can live out wild sexual fantasies, or embark on crazy adventures at your every whim? Imagine the amazing show possibilities at exploring holo-addiction, and how it can utterly destroy a person's ambition to do anything, and whether that really is that wrong. What's the shame of living out a fantasy life if it so accurately emulates reality?

Case-in-point, holograms are portrayed as far too sophisticated in the show. Once you have holograms being regarded as sentient beings, it's like entertaining the possibility of artifical intelligence developping self-awareness. You face the possibility of your creations overthrowing you Terminator-style, along with the other aforementioned problems that Trek seems to either gloss over or cover inadequately.
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Old May 22 2009, 07:50 AM   #1400
Tachyon
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

And about Concerning Flight - not my fav either, but somewhat entertaining. So I give it **.
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Old May 22 2009, 11:06 AM   #1401
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Concerning Flight is definitely an episode I'd pass on. I can accept the idea of using da Vinci as a private confidante for Captain Janeway (though it really could have been just about anyone), but... Did we really need this?
I agree. All that incredibly convoluted set-up with the pirates, the computer core and whatnot was just an excuse for the gag with Janeway and Leonardo da Vinci flying off a cliff. Which wasn't much anyway. I don't mind "high concept", but you have to have something more to it.

I've moaned before about Star Trek's proclivity to create sentient beings at the touch of a button, but this isn't the very worst offender.

Praetor wrote: View Post
DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
A waste of Jonathon Rhys-Davies.
I think ya just mentally mashed two different actors.

John Rhys-Davies, DaVinci/the dude from "Sliders." Jonathan Rhys-Meyers, the dude from "The Tudors."

(I only mention it because I hate the latter. )

I dunno, seems like a bit of a nobhead, but I still would.
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Old May 22 2009, 06:28 PM   #1402
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
I hadn't thought about it while watching the episode, but you make an excellent point. Da Vinci was not a fully interactive hologram, and it has been said many times in the past that Dr Shmully has a special adaptive program which makes him sentient, so da Vinci should not have functioned outside the holodeck.
Exactly.

GodBen wrote: View Post
One thing that did bug me during the episode was knowing that this wasn't the real da Vinci we were dealing with, somebody programmed him to have the personality he has without ever meeting the real deal (lets leave Requiem for Methuselah out of this). It's just wishful thinking that da Vinci is the way he is in this episode. An odd thing to complain about, I agree, but I didn't like the thought.
I'm totally there, too. It wouldn't have bothered me as much had they at least addressed this. I think part of what "Concerning Flight" was trying to do was to take this da Vinci that was Janeway's hero and give means to interact with him in the "real world" while sort of skirting the issue that this was a limited recreation of a person she idolized. I think not directly addressing this was a mistake.

I think I'd have said that yes, this was almost certainly a flawed recreation of the real daVinci, and use that to examine the concept of hero worship through Janeway, and the fact that heroes are just human despite the mythos that surrounds them, perhaps relating in some ways to the pressure Janeway felt she had to live up to as Captain. Perhaps Janeway would have gained insight that she doesn't have to be perfect, that her flaws are part of what makes her, well, her. Perhaps a silly lesson for a middle-aged starship captain to be learning. Then again, maybe not.

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Oh, that really becomes the whole basis of my problems with a lot of Voyager's usage of holograms - the idea that every hologram is capable of awareness of the reality of their surroundings. I mean, the Doctor is a unique situation, being forced to become a fully sentient being due to the fact that he had to be the CMO, and Vic Fontaine was designed to be interactive and aware... At what point do photons and lights become sentient individuals? The stance Voyager seems to take is that the more they're used, the more intelligent and aware they get. To me, that feels like saying that if I play my video games often enough that the NPCs will start taking different actions - the mooks will run in fear when they should be swarming me, the party members will switch to the bad guy's team because they made the more convincing argument, as opposed to my one-line statement that, in the past, has always convinced them to stay on my team... It just doesn't make sense.
QFT. I totally agree. The holographic rights thing - well, we're not there yet. But sufficed to say, I don't like the way it was handled.

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
The problem is that even if you stick to that rule, it is rather mind-boggling in its implications. At some point the Next Generation universe went from astonishment that holo-characters could exceed programming limitations and/or become aware of the world around them (Minuet, the Dixon Hill characters, Professor Moriarty), to the casual creation what is essentially holographic life. And no one noticed. Or if they noticed, they treated their creations with contempt.

The Doctor and Vic were not all that unique. There were other generations of holographic doctors, and it sounded like Felix made characters like Vic for fun. In his spare time. And set up "jack-in-the-box" routines that threatened their lives.

Janeway treated the Doctor like a second-class citizen at first, turning him off in mid-sentence and forgetting about him completely at times. "How flattering." This behavior took years to change, and only when the Doctor asserted himself. Later, when the Doctor started fighting for his rights as a sentient being, I figured someone would bring up Data's situation as a legal precedent. Did they do so? Nope.

It appears the precedents established by "The Measure Of A Man" and "Offspring" were conveniently swept under the rug by the Federation, in favor of doing exactly what was predicted in those episodes -- creating generations of artificial lifeforms to slave away on the holodecks and in the dilithium mines. So much for "exploring the possibilities of existence", when you treat the miracles going on under your nose with contempt. How come Q didn't show up and judge against humanity for this particular crime?

I don't think the shows intended to show this happening, but the writers and producers were just not thinking very hard. If you feature a character like the Doctor, you either 1) establish that he's absolutely unique and treat him accordingly, or 2) you acknowledge that there are others like him and figure out where he fits in the scheme of things. They tried to do both, or neither, and inconsistently.

The one thing they should have done, and never did, was to explore the ramifications of playing God with holographic life.
You have effectively summed up my feelings regarding the mishandling of the whole issue. And we're not even there yet.

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
A waste of Jonathon Rhys-Davies.
I think ya just mentally mashed two different actors.

John Rhys-Davies, DaVinci/the dude from "Sliders." Jonathan Rhys-Meyers, the dude from "The Tudors."

(I only mention it because I hate the latter. )
I dunno, seems like a bit of a nobhead, but I still would.
Oh, so would I. The fact that I hate him helps his case for that, actually.
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Old May 22 2009, 10:01 PM   #1403
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
I think I'd have said that yes, this was almost certainly a flawed recreation of the real daVinci, and use that to examine the concept of hero worship through Janeway, and the fact that heroes are just human despite the mythos that surrounds them, perhaps relating in some ways to the pressure Janeway felt she had to live up to as Captain. Perhaps Janeway would have gained insight that she doesn't have to be perfect, that her flaws are part of what makes her, well, her. Perhaps a silly lesson for a middle-aged starship captain to be learning. Then again, maybe not.
See, that's a good idea and if they had given things a little more thought that is what this episode could have been, but unfortunately they decided to do a "fun" adventure with da Vinci and you all know the end result.


An episode where Neelix dies in the first five minutes? 5 stars!!

An episode where Neelix dies in the first five minutes and comes back to life? No stars for you!

An episode where Neelix dies in the first five minutes and comes back to life in order to be emotionally tortured to the point of attempted suicide? 3 and a half.


Mortal Coil (***½)

Neelix can be intolerable in small doses, but give him an episode and he can usually pull it off, and this is another episode which follows that befuddling rule. It is an interesting idea for an episode and one which I'm surprised Trek had not already done at this point. It has a similar idea to that in season 1's Emanations, but they don't cheat the ending and the story is much, much better.

The biggest problem I have with this episode is the retconning performed on Neelix's character because he never came across as "religious" before. I like the idea that his religion is what gave him the strength to get past the death of his family during the war, but this just seems to come from nowhere. I also like Neelix attempting to kill himself after losing his faith even if it is melodramatic, but it loses its power because we've known Neelix for 3 years and spirituality has never played even a minor role in his life up to this point.

There was a shuttle in this episode. *grumble*
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Old May 22 2009, 10:04 PM   #1404
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I really can't remember much about this one, but I have a vague recollection that it was quite sensitively done. "Jetrel" in the first season was excellent, and I thought they'd use it to really push on with the character, but that didn't happen. It's a shame, because you did get these glimpses that there was a lot more to the character, and a lot more Ethan Philips could give, than we saw for the most part.
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Old May 22 2009, 10:06 PM   #1405
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I liked "Mortal Coil" for the most part, too. The retcon didn't bother me too much, since Neelix is really the only character this could have worked well with. The fact that mostly happy-go-lucky Neelix actually has a tortured soul and tries to off himself is part of the episode's punch.

Accordingly, I also agree that Neelix wasn't handled as well as he could have been, and that Ethan Phillips had a lot more to offer than what he was generally allowed to.

"Fuzzy comic relief" was just a bad idea.
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Old May 22 2009, 10:09 PM   #1406
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Mortal Coil

This episode is absolutely horrible. Neelix is close to death, brought back to life by Seven's god-like powers and then he is robbed of his beliefs about an afterlife. Cruel and unnecessary. Not to mention that Braga had to ram his atheistic beliefs down the throat of the viewers too.

Crap! One of Voyager's worst episodes.

I'll give it 0 point out of 5
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Old May 22 2009, 11:41 PM   #1407
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Mortal Coil is awesome. There's a big problem with it though: Seven's never tries that reanimation trick of hers on any of the redshirts that die while she is on board. Does it only work with main characters?
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Old May 22 2009, 11:49 PM   #1408
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I never cared that much for Motral Coil 2.5 stars out of 4.

The idea is decent but it was used on the wrong character. By this point, I had stopped caring about Neelix and so I could never really get emotionally invested in his plight.
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Old May 23 2009, 12:32 AM   #1409
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

apenpaap wrote: View Post
Mortal Coil is awesome. There's a big problem with it though: Seven's never tries that reanimation trick of hers on any of the redshirts that die while she is on board. Does it only work with main characters?
yeah, i was wondering why seven didn't do this trick for lt. carey.

much has been made that this was braga's attempt to pushing an "atheistic agenda" through neelix not going to an afterlife like he thought he would.

i didn't care either way and just thought it was ethan phillips did a great job of showing the vulnerable side of neelix after constantly showing his "happy-go-lucky" attitude.
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Old May 23 2009, 02:54 AM   #1410
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I have a strange conflict with Mortal Coil. If Neelix is revived, then it's as though he was never really dead since death isn't a reversible process. From a theist's standpoint, Neelix wouldn't find the after-life until he were truly gone.

What was Neelix expecting? "Welcome to your perception of heaven, except you've only entered some other form of unconsciousness and humans should really re-examine their definition of death. It is not your time, so cya later."

I get that the show was trying to shake Neelix's faith, but there's many more ways they could've gone about it. Nano-probe reviving was also sloppily introduced since it wasn't used in any subsequent show, which adds yet another inconsistency to the show's checklist.
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