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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 22 2009, 03:41 AM   #16
RoJoHen
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

cardinal biggles wrote: View Post
Very hard, considering her almost non-involvement in two of the four films.
Exactly my point!

Hell, she doesn't even have to be doing doctory things. Bones almost never does doctory things! He's usually just hanging out on the bridge making snarky comments. Why can't Beverly do the same?!
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Old May 22 2009, 03:49 AM   #17
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

CaptainJon wrote: View Post
Here's a question; Would Nemesis have had the same impact on the franchise and been as poorly received at the box office had it opened in 1996 instead of 2002?
Financially, it probably would have done better, but the story still would have had the same problems. You've got the dangled promise of the Romulans, only to have them play second fiddle to Bald Picard Clone and his Nosferatu-like henchmen, and you've still got Data's empty death.

For me, part of the attraction of First Contact was that we'd finally get to see the Borg on the big screen. And this is back when the Borg were still total badass villains, "Descent" notwithstanding. Then, there was also the fact that this would be the first true TNG movie — no need for Stewart to play second fiddle to Shatner and his ego in the film's final act. Nemesis had none of that going for it.
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Old May 22 2009, 03:53 AM   #18
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

I watched it again yesterday. I like it. It's my third favorite Trek movie.

A lot of the dislike for Nemesis is driven by Copycat posting.
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Old May 22 2009, 04:10 AM   #19
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

I think that it is not nearly as bad as many people make it out to be. I agree with many of the critisisms in the above posts but many people on this board are so over dramatic and talk as if it is the worst travesty ever put to the screen in over 100 years of cinema history. I was very dissapointed in the movie but I enjoyed parts of it and despite all the flaws I can still watch it once in a while and get some enjoyment out of it. Getting released a week before Lord of the Rings didn't help it at the Box office either. Not that that would have made a huge difference but it could have added another 5 or 10 million if it had another week or so before Lord of the Rings.
I think for me it had to do with the fact that I really REALLY wanted to see a great film with the TNG crew.

Ideally it would have been something on an epic scale with the original Enterprise D. But slowly each TNG movie destroyed everything that TNG did so well.

Nemesis was my last hope for a great movie. They teased us with the Romulans, a villain that was hinted at several times during the series, but that's all we ever got, hints. I would have loved to see a Romulan based movie. Instead we got some stupid rubberfaced Lord of the Rings rejects with zero charisma.

The one and only villain of the movie looks like a 17 year old kid with teen angst issues. The story tells us that he's more, but the actor can't pull it off. He comes out as being some whiny brat from Dawson's Creek. This is the guy who's supposed to be Picards equal?

And to add insult to injury, we are told that this is Picard's clone. He looked NOTHING like Picard except he was bald, that's it. And to insult us even further, they pull this contrived scene of "Picard in a photo" that also looked nothing like him.

The whole marriage scene was cringe inducing, particularly Data singing. Man, there were going to be people younger than 50 in the theaters

The argo was a horrid scene because there's no buildup to it, there's nothing at all to tell us why they have a wheeled vehicle onboard a Starship when Antigravity is a dime a dozen. At least in the new Star Trek movie, the Corvette is a classic american icon (I still thought it was the weakest part of that movie as well). The argo looks like a go kart. So the Captain and his closest Senior staff members are running around in a go kart, in a pre-warp civilisation, with no shields, and no protection. The weapons they carry can't even be seen (I hear a shot and maybe the fireball is visible for 1 second).

The whole scene with B4 was so pointless. They assembled the B4 and for the entire movie it did nothing but stare at the audience like an imbecil. No purpose to it other than a cop out for Data's death (which did not work in the least)

The Riker/Troi sex scene. Man, that scarred me, I did not need to see geriatric sex. The Troi mind rape scene was creepy, but fit into the character of Shinzon perfectly (a whiny brat who will assault women if he gets the chance)

Why is the damn ship so dark!!!! Turn on the goddamn lights!!!

Why did the entire crew ESPECIALLY Data look depressed through the entire movie??? Man did someone collectively run over their dogs all at the same time?????

The battle scenes were good, but they teased us with a few federation ships battling Shinzon's ship, oh wait, what? an anomaly just happens to be in the way? Nawwwww!!!!!

Riker's battle down the bottomless pit. Done a thousand times, boring.

The scene with Shinzon pulling himself along the stabbing thing Picard used to kill him was SOOOOO SHAMELESSLY stolen from LotR. How stupid do you have to be to believe people won't immediately tell this? To add insult to injury, Picard didn't kill him, Shinzon "accidentally ran" into it. you know because Picard wouldn't purposely kill his clone that he cares for.

The ring sized transporter are probably the most unbelievable plot device ever invented in a Star Trek film, and they were simply there so Data could have a "heroic" death. Speaking of Data; they killed him. End. Of. Story. I don't care how much sugar coating people give these type of story twists. I do NOT go to a theater to watch the tragic death of a beloved character. Killing Data was the final nail in the coffin for me to a horribly executed movie. The scene with "B4" and Data's memories don't even feel like a proper cop out, I never get the sense that "yes, this could be Data again!".

So there you have it, I think I've covered all the bases as to why I can't stand this movie and was glad it died miserably at the Box Office.
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Old May 22 2009, 04:13 AM   #20
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

IMO? No, it's not really that bad. Incredibly enough, it's even worse.

NCC-1701-B wrote: View Post
Why is it bad? because it has a car at the beginning? I dont get why it is a bad film.
That's fine - to each their own, after all. But for mine, it's bad because of the following:
  • inane "car" chase through desert (so Picard can mimic Bond?) in the wake of gathering bits of yet another Data prototype. Yes, Data was more than just a toaster but how many damned prototypes are out there, anyway?
  • our crew - supposedly the best and brightest, given they've been on the Federation flagship all these years - ignore the precedent of Lore and activate the prototype anyway. Happily it turns out to be a dunce, but it could just as easily have been yet another Lore. No one seemed to consider this possibility.
  • Romulans "somehow" - "somehow" is all the explanation we're given - get a DNA sample from Picard.
  • Romulans create clone of Picard (a clone which, remarkably considering it's a frelling clone, looks nothing whatsoever like Picard) to...what, exactly?
  • Remans, despite being the underclass, repressed etc somehow - without their Romulan bretheren noticing - build a kickarse spaceship that makes the Federation flagship look like a shuttlecraft. Really, did no one notice this?
  • Data sacrifices himself in a manner which makes zero sense.
  • But because of the aforementioned prototype - to which Data conveniently transferred his consciousness before his noble sacrifice - Data's "death" is purely temporary. Although there will be no more TNG movies we know good and well that with just a bit of Federation TLC "B4" (such a witty name) will turn into the Data we know (and may love) in no time. So any emotional significance attached to Data's demise is completely wiped out about 10 minutes after we witnessed it.
The movie has other flaws. Those are merely the ones I can (unfortunately) recall at this distance. The idea of watching that trash again almost makes me gag. If others like it that's perfectly okay, but for mine it's among the worst movies I've seen. And "Copycat posting" () hasn't a thing to do with my ability to form my own opinion of this tripe.
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Old May 22 2009, 05:54 AM   #21
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

Orac Zen wrote: View Post
IMO? No, it's not really that bad. Incredibly enough, it's even worse.

NCC-1701-B wrote: View Post
Why is it bad? because it has a car at the beginning? I dont get why it is a bad film.
That's fine - to each their own, after all. But for mine, it's bad because of the following:
  • inane "car" chase through desert (so Picard can mimic Bond?) in the wake of gathering bits of yet another Data prototype. Yes, Data was more than just a toaster but how many damned prototypes are out there, anyway?
  • our crew - supposedly the best and brightest, given they've been on the Federation flagship all these years - ignore the precedent of Lore and activate the prototype anyway. Happily it turns out to be a dunce, but it could just as easily have been yet another Lore. No one seemed to consider this possibility.
  • Romulans "somehow" - "somehow" is all the explanation we're given - get a DNA sample from Picard.
  • Romulans create clone of Picard (a clone which, remarkably considering it's a frelling clone, looks nothing whatsoever like Picard) to...what, exactly?
  • Remans, despite being the underclass, repressed etc somehow - without their Romulan bretheren noticing - build a kickarse spaceship that makes the Federation flagship look like a shuttlecraft. Really, did no one notice this?
  • Data sacrifices himself in a manner which makes zero sense.
  • But because of the aforementioned prototype - to which Data conveniently transferred his consciousness before his noble sacrifice - Data's "death" is purely temporary. Although there will be no more TNG movies we know good and well that with just a bit of Federation TLC "B4" (such a witty name) will turn into the Data we know (and may love) in no time. So any emotional significance attached to Data's demise is completely wiped out about 10 minutes after we witnessed it.
The movie has other flaws. Those are merely the ones I can (unfortunately) recall at this distance. The idea of watching that trash again almost makes me gag. If others like it that's perfectly okay, but for mine it's among the worst movies I've seen. And "Copycat posting" () hasn't a thing to do with my ability to form my own opinion of this tripe.
I agree with all of this.
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Old May 22 2009, 07:54 AM   #22
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

I think it's all a matter of opinion, but I personally would not call Nemesis the worst Trek film. For me that mantle rests with The Final Frontier, but it's all a matter of opinion. I admit was greatly disappointed by Nemesis, especially since all the right pieces were there for a great movie. They just couldn't pull it off because of a play-it-safe-by-the-books producer an ignorant director.
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Old May 22 2009, 09:30 AM   #23
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

I know I'm a somewhat lone voice, but I greatly enjoyed Nemesis every time I saw it at the cinema and again when I got it on DVD. I really don't see much basis for all the hate. The only thing I thought was really bad was the completely unnecessary planet scene. Aside from that, I loved it.
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Old May 22 2009, 10:55 AM   #24
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Shinzon is an absurd villain with motivations that make absolutely no sense. "The Romulans were mean to me, so I need to destroy Earth!"
Yep. And on top of that he's defanged early on the movie between being on the verge of dying without Picard's help and losing the support of his associates, if I remember right. Nero in the new movie is how Shinzon should have been.

Weak villian, pointless revenge plot, B4 were all reasons why this was bad. I knew it was going to be a painful ride when 30 or so minutes in when I was wishing the movie had been a little more like Insurrection.

Maybe it's not as bad as I remember? I don't know, but Nemesis is the first Trek movie I've had no desire to watch again.
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Old May 22 2009, 11:48 AM   #25
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

I presume that he means to destroy Earth to unite Romulans and Remans alike behind his rule through such a demonstration of his power. It makes no less sense than Nero's motivations.
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Old May 22 2009, 12:24 PM   #26
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

Garrett wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Shinzon is an absurd villain with motivations that make absolutely no sense. "The Romulans were mean to me, so I need to destroy Earth!"
Yep. And on top of that he's defanged early on the movie between being on the verge of dying without Picard's help and losing the support of his associates, if I remember right. Nero in the new movie is how Shinzon should have been.

Weak villian, pointless revenge plot, B4 were all reasons why this was bad. I knew it was going to be a painful ride when 30 or so minutes in when I was wishing the movie had been a little more like Insurrection.

Maybe it's not as bad as I remember? I don't know, but Nemesis is the first Trek movie I've had no desire to watch again.
Add to this the fact that he's on the verge of death unless he can steal Picard's DNA (or whatever) Time is of the essense...so what does he do? The Enterprise turns up in Romulus orbit and Shinzon sits there cloaked for hours and hours...then appears, gets Picard to pop over and then--rather than use his superior forces to destroy the Enterprise and capture Picard--actually invites Picard to dinner and says see you tonight! Its utterly ludicrous! As is his plan to destroy Earth (it's all their fault apparently?)

Plus whenever we saw young Picard in Next Gen it was clear that he did once have hair!

Worst Trek film by a mile for me, but I would have forgiven the plot elements if the characters had acted more like the people I knew from 7 seasons and 3 previous films, and if the film had been better directed.
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Old May 22 2009, 01:45 PM   #27
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

As I was told in one of the Trek XI review threads, there are no such things as plot holes...just imagination holes, where you the viewer are to fill in the blanks. It gives a movie a free pass. Yeah, I don't believe that either.

I liked Nemesis. I don't think it deserves all the crap it gets. I think the premise is strong, as well as the theme the story was presenting. Then again, I find the whole nature v. nurture thing interesting.

However, I do realize that it is not a polished film and could have used a better director (not necessarily one that is familiar with Trek history, but at least one that can construct a logical flowing story) or at least a script consultant to iron out some of the bumps that were featured in it (bottomless pit in the Enterprise, anyone?).

The few other problems that plagued it, I am sure, dealt with it's release date (not really good to have this film released in a season with about 90 other hotly anticipated flicks), coupled with the fact that the script was leaked online about a year before the movie causing an extremely early bad word of mouth. Also, I just don't think Paramount cared enough about the movie. They seemed to just give Braid the directing job "just because." Supposedly it was the highest marketed Trek movie up to that point. How? Where? I never saw anything, not even commercials on TV.

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
And to add insult to injury, we are told that this is Picard's clone. He looked NOTHING like Picard except he was bald, that's it. And to insult us even further, they pull this contrived scene of "Picard in a photo" that also looked nothing like him.
Oh, come on. Of all the things to complain about, this is probably the dumbest. That is one of those things you just have to run with. Chris Pine looks NOTHING like William Shatner, yet he is meant to be young Kirk and is even recognized by Old Spock. Yet, no one complained about that in Trek XI.
Orac Zen wrote: View Post
Romulans create clone of Picard (a clone which, remarkably considering it's a frelling clone, looks nothing whatsoever like Picard) to...what, exactly?
They were going age him quickly and replace the real Picard (obviously in an earlier point in his career) as a spy in the Federation. However, governments changed and so did their plans. This was explained in the movie.

Starkers wrote: View Post
Plus whenever we saw young Picard in Next Gen it was clear that he did once have hair!
Schinzon's head looked pretty obviously shaved. I just assumed that the character shaved it to psych Picard out. And there is nothing ruling out that Picard shaved his head earlier in life. Maybe he shaved it during cross-country season. As established in BoBW, Picard was a runner, and many runners seem to do that. The showing of that picture was probably done to further the connection for the viewing audience and, again, this is one of those things that you just have to run with.
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Old May 22 2009, 02:41 PM   #28
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

Broccoli wrote: View Post
Schinzon's head looked pretty obviously shaved. I just assumed that the character shaved it to psych Picard out. And there is nothing ruling out that Picard shaved his head earlier in life. Maybe he shaved it during cross-country season. As established in BoBW, Picard was a runner, and many runners seem to do that. The showing of that picture was probably done to further the connection for the viewing audience and, again, this is one of those things that you just have to run with.
Sounds like you have no problem with those "imagination holes".
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Old May 22 2009, 03:17 PM   #29
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

I think "Nemesis" was what I would consider a "decent" film...not great but, serviceable. Of the first ten "Star Trek" films, it's certainly better than "Final Frontier", the ORIGINAL cut of "The Motion Picture" and "Insurrection" (now, THERE was a "big TV episode"). Of the "Next Generation" films, it's #3 as far as I'm concerned ("First Contact" being #1, "Generations" #2, etc.).

Further, it's not that the release of "Nemesis" was poorly timed (it was) as much as there was just too much "Star Trek" at the time ("Enterprise" on TV, "Voyager" had just wrapped up) & the general public (as well as myself) pretty much was saying what Homer Simpson said at the beginning of "The Simpsons Movie"..."why should I shell out nine bucks for something I can watch at home for free?"

Suffice it to say, Paramount very nearly killed its' cash cow by over-feeding it. Now that "Star Trek"'s been on a diet for seven years, the time for the newest incarnation is ripe.

Also, remember that Paramount only started making "Next Generation" movies for two reasons: 1) The original cast was old & 2) "Next Generation" cast members didn't get paid as much as the original cast. Also, it was Paramount that killed the basic idea of this new film back in 1990. I don't think the powers-that-be ever truly understood what they were dealing with. Probably still don't...
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Old May 22 2009, 03:28 PM   #30
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Re: Was Nemesis Really That Bad or Just Poorly Timed?

I thought it sucked for all the reasons stated before, especially the idea of finding another Data prototype. That made no sense at all to me. What? did they all get amnesia or something and forget they did that before with Lore?

Any way wish the TNG could have gone out with a better movie than this turkey. They deserved better.
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