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Old May 17 2009, 12:00 AM   #16
CTM
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
CTM wrote: View Post
There is much work to be done, and some of the problems appear to be daunting. I tried building the hull surface two days ago, and found I could not get the proportions to work out right. I will try again once I have all the decks in the secondary completed, and build the structural ribs and associated framework - from there I can plate the exterior.
That's actually why I've chosen to work how I'm working now... do the exterior first, then "subdivide" the interior into the useable spaces. Most blueprint guys, when doing interiors, miss a few details (proper head clearance, etc, etc) and as often as not, the prints will need tweaking in order to actually fit into the exterior anyway. So you have a choice... tweak the outside, or tweak the inside. You'll probably end up doing a little bit of both (in my case, altering some window locations slightly, mainly, on the exterior) but it's almost a certainty that the "deckplans" won't match the exterior, unless both are done from the same "virtual ship."
I thought about your more conventional approach, but decided I wanted to see about making the interiors to match what was seen, and build out from there. Obviously, neither of us are using purely outside->in or inside->out approaches - we always have an eye towards the other side of the process to prevent our going down a obviously incorrect path.
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Old May 17 2009, 03:45 PM   #17
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Mighty nice ship you have there.
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Old May 18 2009, 01:58 AM   #18
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Santaman wrote: View Post
Mighty nice ship you have there.
Thank you. I figure this is far more sane than actually trying to build a physical model like this. My wife certainly is happy that I'm not taking up the entire basement trying to build this at about 1:144 or 1:96 ;-)

Some additional progress this evening. Didn't finish Q-Deck, but I made some good progress.


added the railing around the cargo bay, and the turntable on the base of the shuttle bay. Most of the remaining space is "undefined" as yet, though I have some ideas of what is going in each space.

The obverse of the same image (I see I didn't reverse the background color before posting)
I know the tubolift running between the elevators is NOT seen on screen, but without it, there would be no turbolift access to R-deck (I may also go back and add lift-stations on the cargo bay on R-deck as well). I suppose I could run another shaft straight down from the neck, but it would keep the space tight ahead of the intermix chamber all the way down.

And now for the closeup.
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Old May 18 2009, 02:19 PM   #19
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

very nice work there
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Old May 18 2009, 03:32 PM   #20
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Bernard Guignard wrote: View Post
very nice work there
Thanks. I'm looking forward to (eventually) completing it, and then doing some "deck wandering" with blender. Though of course I'll need to add furniture and other equipment as well. A ship is more than just the compartments and bulkheads.
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Old May 18 2009, 04:45 PM   #21
Bernard Guignard
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

CTM wrote: View Post
Bernard Guignard wrote: View Post
very nice work there
Thanks. I'm looking forward to (eventually) completing it, and then doing some "deck wandering" with blender. Though of course I'll need to add furniture and other equipment as well. A ship is more than just the compartments and bulkheads.
Truth be told I'd be looking forward to a 3d model of a TMP Captain's Chair I've drawn schematics in Autocad Lite 97 but I don't know if they are
scaled properly.
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Old May 19 2009, 04:02 AM   #22
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

^ Love to see the chair man!
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Old May 19 2009, 04:45 AM   #23
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Only two pics for tonight. I spent too long into the evening working on the visible framework in the cargo bay and shuttle hangar. I was forced into the conclusion that I cannot connect the turbolift through the shuttlebay, and still be anywhere close to the on-screen images. Not much visible to show for the effort, but I am closing in on the end of building the inside of the cargo bay. One more deck with the shuttle-bay to go, and I'll be done with that. A couple more decks, and the secondary hull will be ready to actually frame and complete.



and the wide shot from the other quarter:
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Old May 19 2009, 05:57 PM   #24
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

This is some really tremendous work, CTM.
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Old May 19 2009, 06:42 PM   #25
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Hi CTM...

I haven't used AutoCAD in ages, but I'm curious about something. I seem to remember that the "3D capability in AutoCAD was fairly limited... mainly just linear extrusion of 2D sketches, no "complex curve" capabilities. At least in the early implementation... and more recently, AutoDeck treats "Inventor" as their preferred 3D solution.

So... for those "complex curved" shapes (ie, hull walls, etc)... have you figured out how best to do those using your toolset? Or, am I mistaken about how this works, and it has that ability well-implemented already?

Just wondering...
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Old May 19 2009, 06:59 PM   #26
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Hi CTM...

I haven't used AutoCAD in ages, but I'm curious about something. I seem to remember that the "3D capability in AutoCAD was fairly limited... mainly just linear extrusion of 2D sketches, no "complex curve" capabilities. At least in the early implementation... and more recently, AutoDeck treats "Inventor" as their preferred 3D solution.

So... for those "complex curved" shapes (ie, hull walls, etc)... have you figured out how best to do those using your toolset? Or, am I mistaken about how this works, and it has that ability well-implemented already?

Just wondering...
Complex curves are a problem. Especially for modeling. My approach is to use the 3-d edge-surf to create a high-density mesh for say a warped or twisted sheet of paper (or metal, or ...), and then explode that into it's constituent parts, and reassemble as a solid. It is not great, but it works. I have long since gotten used to the limitations on the complex 3D curves, and simply work around as best I can. For this project, if I have any such curves, I will likely create them as basic meshes, and leave it at that. I cannot think of anything on this project though that will be that complicated. The Secondary Hull is essentially a 2-d curve rotated about the axis, with parts cut out and other parts added on. The primary hull is essentially a 2-d curve spun about a different axis, but is far simpler. I can only think of the three "bumps" around the deflector (Port, Starboard, and Below) that might have issues - and I doubt I'll have much problem with them.

Now Excelsior, on the other hand, might be a bit more challenging. A Galaxy Class even moreso. My solution for those though is that the mechanical implementation of such ships will still follow a basic mathematical approximation, with the ribs of the hull defining (rather than describing) the contours. Hull plates are basically flat or slightly warped pieces attached to the ribs. a "linear" breakdown of a complex curve is acceptable, if the edges line up with the underlying structure.

AutoCAD before R12 was very limited in 3D capability. It was as you say, extrapolation of 2D lines. Some basic meshes could also be generated. R12 introduced the solid-modeling capability, and R13 improved upon it. There are still limitations, and certainly it is not comparable to a modern version, but it does 98% of what I need it to, and I can "fill in the gaps" on the remainder manually.
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Old May 20 2009, 03:46 AM   #27
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

I decided to enclose the forward end of the shuttle-bay tonight, trying to keep the best of both TMP and TFF, and to permit turbolift access to the shuttle-bay and associated hangars.




and the wider field of view

There are pressure doors permitting access to the shuttle elevators (port elevator is green). I have reworked the Q-deck side portions of the shuttle-bay, but have not yet built the "cuby-holes" for the Work-bees and other associated hardware, nor have I added the landing-lights and other flight-deck hardware.
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Old May 20 2009, 04:51 AM   #28
Cary L. Brown
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

CTM wrote: View Post
I decided to enclose the forward end of the shuttle-bay tonight, trying to keep the best of both TMP and TFF, and to permit turbolift access to the shuttle-bay and associated hangars.




and the wider field of view

There are pressure doors permitting access to the shuttle elevators (port elevator is green). I have reworked the Q-deck side portions of the shuttle-bay, but have not yet built the "cuby-holes" for the Work-bees and other associated hardware, nor have I added the landing-lights and other flight-deck hardware.
Well, I know you're working from pre-existing blueprints for the most part, but I have to toss this out there...

Does a ship this size REALLY need that many lift stations? I mean... honestly... the secondary hull isn't that long. Put a single station about midway down the hull... and it's how far, again, to the most distant part of that deck?

This is a personal pet-peeve of mine... no wonder Scotty became overweight... he never had to walk more than ten steps between any room and any lift tube!

Seriously... the shuttle-bay tube seems sorta silly to me. Two main "vertical" tubes (midway down the hull, port and starboard, in the cargo deck area) seems MORE than enough, doesn't it?
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Old May 20 2009, 02:18 PM   #29
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Well, I know you're working from pre-existing blueprints for the most part, but I have to toss this out there...

Does a ship this size REALLY need that many lift stations? I mean... honestly... the secondary hull isn't that long. Put a single station about midway down the hull... and it's how far, again, to the most distant part of that deck?

This is a personal pet-peeve of mine... no wonder Scotty became overweight... he never had to walk more than ten steps between any room and any lift tube!

Seriously... the shuttle-bay tube seems sorta silly to me. Two main "vertical" tubes (midway down the hull, port and starboard, in the cargo deck area) seems MORE than enough, doesn't it?
I agree, except....
We see in TMP the two tubolift tubes running inside the cargo bay. There is an access point on the top level for ease of access to the docking ports. There is not one on the cargo-mid-deck, and presumably there is one on the bottom deck of the cargo bay. Additionally, the Cargo-Mid-Bay does not appear to be intended for walk-through in all states. Probert indicated he saw retractable decking that would cover all or most of the base of the bay to allow the stacking of more cargo modules. You can see from his plates that there are no guardrails lining the mid-deck like there are lining the high-deck. The top 2/3 of the cargo bay access the shuttle elevators and hangar bays. Visible on Probert's plates the "elevator shaft" runs to a deck above the cargo bay, making the shaft 3 decks high. The top two decks of the shaft access the shuttle-bay (which tops out a deck higher still). Probert indicated that there is equipment etc. between the elevators themelves that was "retracted" to open the space for cargo loading.

In TFF we see an enclosed shuttle bay, with two doors flanking a single turbo-lift entrance in the middle of the forward portion of the bay. Having this turbolift configuration works well as a compromise between the versions, and can easily be explained as a post TMP change that makes onboard operations smoother.

Under the strict TMP position*, of just the pair of shafts running through the secondary hull, there is NO turbolift access to R-deck, and the access to S-deck is only through the cargo bay. To access the Shuttle Hangar (especially if you have supplies or equipment to move in/out for a landing party or shuttlecraft repairs) you have to go to Q-deck (Cargo High Bay) and then take a shuttle elevator down, or find a "jeffries tube" or ladder/stairway connector. Viable, but certainly not ideal. Adding a Turbolift between the elevators makes sense, allowing access to the Shuttle Hangar for easier/faster movement.

For practicalities sake, I have to add at least one vertical tube to the secondary hull, either forward or aft of the cargo bay (or I have to add a lift station to the Cargo Mid Bay). In TFF we see a lift station midline forward in the shuttle bay, presumably between the shuttle elevators. This fits well with the other placements, and I find is a reasonable comprimise between the two depictions. R-deck is still served limitedly - the only access points are the ladders/one-man-lifts in Engineering, any other "Jeffries tubes" I add later (I will always provide a non tubo-lift way to get through the ship), and the lift station in the hangar (below the shuttle-bay). I would like to add a forward access point for R-deck, but don't see a good way to do it without having turbolifts running everywhere. The lifts I have depicted represent those we have seen in the two films (TMP and TFF), and work well from a practicality standpoint. Adding another would, I feel, be overkill.

*Of course, under strict TMP position, the hull needs to be almost twice as wide to permit the corridors visible extending latterally away from the cargo bay to connect to something other than the outer hull. That Cargo Bay is a sizeable volume in the middle of the secondary hull. Connected with the Shuttle Hangars and Shuttle Bay, it is quite simply the largest contiguous (even if it can easily be compartmented) volume on the ship, by far. It consumes MOST of the volume of the secondary hull, and under a capacity load, I would see contributing very nearly a plurality of the mass of the ship.

This of course begs the question: What is the cargo loadout of a Constitutuion Class Starship at 1) the start of a 5-year mission? 2) the middle of said mission? 3) at the end of the mission? The designers obviously included a massive cargo capacity, what was the intended use?
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Old May 21 2009, 03:34 AM   #30
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

I built Main Engineering tonight. One more deck to go (and a small one at that), and I can start framing the hull.

First, the profile:

Then the standard forward and aft perspectives:

The forward Turbolift is where it is because the forward edge of the neck is immediately above that shaft. I have no choice but to route the lift tube through the neck ahead of the Vertical Intermix Chamber (reference the discussion in the Tech forum). There is precious little space on O-deck that is available for full-height compartments (actually, Main Engineering is a 20% taller than the other decks in the secondary hull). The lifts route around Main Engineering, with a station dead-aft with access to a partial-height deck down to the control room above the doors to the shuttle bay. Dorsal Secondary Phasers are also located in this space.

and a tighter shot to get the horizontal intermix chamber:


As I finish these decks, I feel more and more like this is a real structure I am working with. Far more real to me now than pouring over all the 2-d plans in the world.
Once I frame the hull, I will have the proper limitations on the outer edges of compartments and structures, and will trim the protruding decks accordingly. Some of the "crawl spaces" I have not even begun to mess with, as I don't really know how much space I'll have to work with.
The next deck actually is mostly "crawl space" with some interface into the neck, but will allow me to define the upper edge of the secondary hull.
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