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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old May 14 2009, 01:26 AM   #1276
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yes, once they use up all the torpedoes I'll be doing the same thing, and it will be cumulative so if a torpedo and shuttle are used in an episode together 1 star will be deducted. And if the episode also happens to be a TNG knock-off then one and a half stars will be deducted.

I'm desperately trying to earn my reputation as a hater back after what I said the other night.
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Old May 14 2009, 01:37 AM   #1277
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen, it is at least reasonable to assume that building a few new shuttles or salvaging some of the wrecked ones is possible.

Was it 17 shuttle crashes that somebody listed awhile back? Yeah that takes things into the realm of absurdity. But building at least a few more, why not? And remember not all of them were destroyed. Some were probably salvaged and rebuilt offscreen.

I feel the same way about the photorps. In the beginning they say something about not being able to replace them. But by this point in the series they have encountered and traded with enough cultures to have the ability to make more. Yes it is weak this isn't ever mentioned, yeah it is lame that we are never made to feel that there is or ever will be a shortage of them..but like with the shuttles I see no reason why they couldn't make more with the right materials.

I tend to agree with your complaints about most of these issues and wish they had been addressed. But I think you might be taking it a bit far.
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Old May 14 2009, 01:37 AM   #1278
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Sorry, double post.
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Last edited by The Grim Ghost; May 14 2009 at 01:41 AM. Reason: double post
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Old May 14 2009, 02:00 AM   #1279
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

destro wrote: View Post
GodBen, it is at least reasonable to assume that building a few new shuttles or salvaging some of the wrecked ones is possible.
I've actually been fairly lenient about this; if a shuttle crashes and is mostly intact (and Voyager isn't forced to flee as in Parturition) then I assume the shuttle was salvaged. I did this for the shuttle in Rise even though most think it was beyond salvaging. But if the shuttle was 100% destroyed then I count it.

And I was going to start this from shuttle number 5 but then I realised that means they'd be storing 3 shuttles to port and 2 to starboard (or vice versa) and I prefer to think that the shuttles are symmetrically stored so I upped it to 6. (I put far too much thought into this.)


The truth is that I'm not judging Voyager on an episode by episode basis, I'm trying to judge it as a series and since I view these things as undercutting the premise of the series I feel the need to take marks away from them. It might not be fair to take marks away from an episode, especially the good ones, but this is the best way I can think to work it.
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Old May 14 2009, 03:21 AM   #1280
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The only thing I'm worried about with the taking half a point off for shuttles and torpedoes now is that people like to compare your scores between seasons and between episodes. Is a season 7 episode that uses both a torpedo and a shuttle really a full point worse than a season 1 episode that does the same thing? It's very likely that the same disregard for the resources that Voyager had available to them were there in either case. Essentially, it's almost certain that seasons 5-7 are going to be your worst rated seasons, and a large part of that is going to be shuttles and torpedoes. Unlike the TNG like deduction (which is possible in any season) there will be an inherent bias in the data because of this. Personally, I think you should count each time it happens, and then when you average your scores for the entire series (giving an overall series quality score) you can take off a certain amount off the average for each time it happened. That would penalize the overall series score without hurting the individual episodes themselves.
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Old May 14 2009, 03:30 AM   #1281
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I agree with Cubcoltracer. But it's your thread GodBen, do as you wish. I pay more attention to your comments about the episodes than to the scores anyway.
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Old May 14 2009, 07:23 AM   #1282
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Jaespol wrote: View Post
And I don't think taking away half a star for every shuttle lost is really fair.
Then wait until you hear this; it's not for every shuttle lost, it is for every shuttle which appears from now on. They used all their shuttles and it is really undercutting the premise of the show, so I'm deducting half a star every time a shuttle is used as a plot point until they tell me where these magical shuttles are coming from.

My goodwill towards Voyager was always only going to be temporary.
You are forgetting The Torpedo And Shuttle Building Team, aren't you?

The special team which was assembled in season 2 after the destruction of their second shuttle in "Parturition".

The team was lead by Lt. Carey and included Rollins, Dalby, Henley, Chell and Gerron. Later on Vorik, Samantha Wildman and The Borg Baby joined this special unit.
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Old May 14 2009, 01:25 PM   #1283
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Lynx wrote: View Post
You are forgetting The Torpedo And Shuttle Building Team, aren't you?
And when they are referenced on screen then this whole problem will go away, but I don't think that's likely to happen.

It is a little tough on the individual episodes, I agree, but the writers must have realised when writing the episodes that something was wrong with how many shuttles they had destroyed and were continuing to destroy. All they had to do was throw in a short line about the shuttle and torpedo building team and I would begrudgingly back down, but if they didn't bother to put that line into a script then it's not my fault.

As for the torpedoes, We're almost half-way through the show now and they have used up just over half the torpedoes, so with a little rationing I see no reason why we couldn't make it to the end of the show without using them all.
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Old May 14 2009, 05:14 PM   #1284
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
As for the torpedoes, We're almost half-way through the show now and they have used up just over half the torpedoes, so with a little rationing I see no reason why we couldn't make it to the end of the show without using them all.
Wait till you see Night. They fire a Galaxy class' complement's worth of torpedoes in that one.

You make some very interesting observations about Voyager, GodBen, most of which I agree with. In fact, this has become my favourite thread currently active on the bbs. However, I think you're taking this shuttle/torpedo thing a bit far. IMO, it is a structural problem of Voyager that should reflect itself structurally in your rating of the series, not on an episodic basis. Now I have to add the stars you've deducted for shuttle loss to the rating to see how you rate the episode itself, which is really of the most interest to me. I'm just sayin'... Keep up the good work.
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Old May 14 2009, 07:58 PM   #1285
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The fact that so many people have asked me to hold back on the point deductions for torpedoes and shuttles is beginning to make me question that policy, so I have come to an important decision; I'm going to set you all to ignore for the duration of my reviews. I can't have people influencing me, I'm sure you all understand and thank you for your cooperation.


Wouldn't it be fun if I was really like that?

I'm shelving that policy for now and I'll try to find a way to incorporate point deductions without affecting the episode scores, so consider Nemesis as being promoted to three and a half stars. I'm keeping the point deductions for TNG-style episodes as I do feel that this is a valid complaint against individual episodes as opposed to the show in general.
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Old May 14 2009, 08:02 PM   #1286
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Golly, GB, that's so...reasonable! You're getting dangerously rational for a Trek board, you know...
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Old May 14 2009, 08:09 PM   #1287
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I dunno... I agree with deducting points for that sort of thing, since it bugs me every time I see it, and thus detracts from my enjoyment of individual episodes.

Personally I think GodBen should also deduct points every time they lose another member of the engineering group without mentioning staffing problems. Do you realize how many engineers they lost during that show? Sure, you can train other people to take their place, but it's going to take years, and there are only just so many people you can pull from other departments. And the engineering team would suffer major losses in efficiency in the meantime.

Especially if they're trying to build shuttles and torpedoes at the same time!
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Old May 14 2009, 08:28 PM   #1288
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm of the opinion that GodBen's critaria will be quite interesting but by the time season 6 comes along, this thread might be useless because the hater is still the hater. Every episode will be like 1 star or something.
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Old May 14 2009, 08:52 PM   #1289
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen has created an interesting thread so let him continue with his reviews through all seasons, wether we agree with his ratings for the different episodes or not. This is perfect for a good debate about each episode.
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Old May 14 2009, 09:10 PM   #1290
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

JustKate wrote: View Post
Golly, GB, that's so...reasonable! You're getting dangerously rational for a Trek board, you know...
I wish I could take all the credit, but I only realised the truth after being visited by three ghosts during the night. They took me on a crazy journey through time and showed me the negative consequences of my policy, and it would have taken a heart of stone to ignore their pleas.

So I told them to GTFO and let me get back to sleep, but the ghost from the future threw me against the wall and held a knife to my throat. I'm not a smart man but I know when I'm bested, so I backed down in the face of imminent death.

True story.

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
I dunno... I agree with deducting points for that sort of thing, since it bugs me every time I see it, and thus detracts from my enjoyment of individual episodes.
I'm going to try to get the point deductions in there at some point, but since I've begun judging the writers on their episodes it probably isn't fair to take away points from them for something wrong with the series as a whole. I'll keep a track of how many shuttles show up each season and try to find a way to deduct them in the season review.
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