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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 706 62.70%
Above Average 213 18.92%
Average 84 7.46%
Below Average 46 4.09%
Poor 77 6.84%
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Old May 11 2009, 10:36 AM   #1366
Mutenroshi
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Jim Steele, I think among all those people who disliked the movie, you're the only one who came here to express your opinion but DID NOT engage in a pissing contest like 99.9% of the naysayers. I greatly respect your opinion (always had AAMOF), it's refreshing.
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Old May 11 2009, 10:45 AM   #1367
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Mutenroshi wrote: View Post
Jim Steele, I think among all those people who disliked the movie, you're the only one who came here to express your opinion but DID NOT engage in a pissing contest like 99.9% of the naysayers. I greatly respect your opinion (always had AAMOF), it's refreshing.
Nobody got upset over my review a few pages back. It think its possible to dislike the movie without getting having to fire shots at people.

Back on topic, I think its really quite refreshing the amount of people who dislike this movie. I was concerned that I was the only one to have had some problems with it, but that other people do, and many of them the same, I feel quite pleased that I am not alone.
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Old May 11 2009, 10:51 AM   #1368
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Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

No-one has been able to clarify why the fuck everyone thinks Khan was so bloody brilliant. He was a bad captain who made all the wrong decisions, had no idea when to shut up and was too self-absorbed and plain stupid to keep his intentions a secret until nobody could stop him anymore.

His crew were moronic evil minions and he was an overlord with a grudge. His motivation was pretty far-fetched: it wasn't Kirk's decision to maroon him, much less his job to babysit the man once he got dumped on Ceti Alpha whatsitsnumber. It was his own fault, because he was too incompetent to get the job done in the first place. Fat lot of good his supposedly superior intellect did him. He didn't actually come across as being smart at all. Sure, the Feds abandoned him, but his being beaten was his own fault and he must have known that.

And don't get me started on the monologues.

I can relate to Nero, I sure as hell can't relate to Khan, like, at all.
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Old May 11 2009, 10:57 AM   #1369
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Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

lexington1709 wrote: View Post
  • Shields seemed to be sub-par. In TOS, they were tough SOB’s that were hard to knock out. Here, seems like even a screw or nut could take them down easily.
To be fair, they are fighting a ship from 150 years in the future. I'd like to see a ship from 1858 take on a fully equipped, modern-day aircraft carrier. And not get its every defensive measure blown through like a lightsaber through butter. In the Kelvin scenes, the crewmembers are freaked out and comment that it's as if their shields aren't even there.
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Old May 11 2009, 10:59 AM   #1370
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Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

Can I please ask that this be moved to teh grading thread? I posted a long review as well but there's no reason a long review shouldn't go in there just the same as a short one.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:02 AM   #1371
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Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
lexington1709 wrote: View Post
  • Shields seemed to be sub-par. In TOS, they were tough SOB’s that were hard to knock out. Here, seems like even a screw or nut could take them down easily.
To be fair, they are fighting a ship from 150 years in the future. I'd like to see a ship from 1858 take on a fully equipped, modern-day aircraft carrier. And not get its every defensive measure blown through like a lightsaber through butter. In the Kelvin scenes, the crewmembers are freaked out and comment that it's as if their shields aren't even there.
Granted, they were fighting someone from the future but those shields still should have taken more than one shot. Take TMP. V'Ger has a 12 power energy field behind its weapons but the Enterprise shields held against two full salvos.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:08 AM   #1372
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Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
No-one has been able to clarify why the fuck everyone thinks Khan was so bloody brilliant. He was a bad captain who made all the wrong decisions, had no idea when to shut up and was too self-absorbed and plain stupid to keep his intentions a secret until nobody could stop him anymore.

.
Khan was a stand out villan because he had depth and could be understood. He was after Kirk for a very personal reason and that was emotionally realised on screen, unlike Nero. You say he made all the wrong decisions and was a bad captain. He couldn't have been that bad if he took over the Reliant and stranded her crew. But his errors highlight a very important part of the character. He egomanical approach is what was his undoing. He let vengeance consume him but refused to realise it because he thought he was smarter than everybody else. I think the real difference is in portrayl. Montablbans role was well written and well acted and had a great deal of screen time. Nero, on the other hand, get a lousy short flashback for us to understand his anger, and the odd scene with Pike. You don't feel anything for him because by the time he dies you hardly got to know him. Whilst Bana does his best with the role, the character simply has no development whatsoever. Even Shinzon, dare I say it, had more time for the exploration of his character than poor Nero did.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:23 AM   #1373
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Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

I think he only took over the Reliant because those guys were caught with their pants down. I see your point, I really do, and thanks for clarifying....but I stand by my judgement of the character. I can't relate to him, and he's not all that smart.

Thanks for the explanation though.


Oh, and I think Nero would totally kick Shinzon's butt. He does in the credibility and coolness department, anyway.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:25 AM   #1374
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Feofilakt wrote: View Post
James Bond wrote: View Post
Feofilakt wrote: View Post

I thought there were no more corporations in the Federation

How did they make it through the crippling world war and economic restructuring???
Yeah. And not only that, but how did General Motors, Ford, GE, and others survive World War I AND World War II??

I smell a canon rape..
Corporations don't exist because the Federation's economy is structured along technocratic lines, making it a quasi-communist state.

And WW1 and WW2 were not massive nuclear wars, so that point is irrelevant. I was only making an observation, no reason to get defensive...
How would you know that. The state of federation money and how it's changed all the time. There was money one episode and wasn't in another.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:33 AM   #1375
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Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

Lexington1709 wrote:
My second biggest point of contention is the ending. Kirk was a CADET throughout the film and now he gets the Enterprise? Does this mean that if I go through the Academy in three years, I can get command of the Lexington when I graduate? What crew are you going to ‘assign’ to serve on a ship with an inexperienced, devil-may-care commander? I was about beside myself when I saw them hand over a brand new ship to a wet-behind-the-ears, cocky-as-hell kid like Kirk. God help Starfleet.
Yeah, I don't see how any serious fan can watch the movie and not have a problem with this. I spent the whole of the movie thinking "fuck you JJ, there's no way this is credible".

Too many plot elements from Star Trek II appear in this film. Khan was brilliant but you can only reuse it so much before you cheapen the original. Okay, you want to give the bad guy some motivation but how many times can you use the old “you killed so-and-so, so now I’m going to get my revenge on you” bit? And what was with that parasite thing? Come up with something a bit better, will you and let Khan remain the masterpiece it is?
The problem is that Trek movies have now fallen victim to formula. No matter how many critics gush over this film you cannot get away from the fact that at the end of the day it's the same "nasty bad guy is a threat to the Enterprise crew and/or earth" that we've seen in most of the movies.

I cannot stand the engineering sections. Did JJ or any of his team actually visit a Navy ship? Apparently not; like Russ, they seem to be more from a factory than a starship’s engine room. And what was with those flight decks? Those two areas should look like the rest of the ship’s interiors.
This seems to be one of the most disliked elemnts of the new set designs and the movie in general. I personally despised it. I hope JJ listens and makes the required changes for the sequel.

The bridge and other interiors will take some time to get used to and to be honest, I’m not wild about them. Again, JJ and his team actually should have gone to see a US Navy and a Royal Navy ship to get an idea of how things work on combatant ships. To me, it seems like Apple’s iPod team designed these interiors; was Steve Jobs the prime contractor?
If so I think Bill Gates will be the villan in the sequel.

I am not a fan of the mini-skirts as uniforms. Back in the 1960’s, it was acceptable. Today, I don’t think it’s even appropriate. If you’re going to re-imagine the franchise, I think this was the one thing we could have done without. Get rid of them. Women don’t need to show their legs to get ahead. But at least you did away with the tight catsuits.
This didn't bother me at all. I never understood the PC theory that women aren't allowed to look sexy when they are at work. For all we know they have an alternative trouser uniform in any event. If I had any gripe at all it was fact that the male uniforms so closely resembled their TOS counterpart, but the ladies version wasn't - particularly with respect to the missing sleeves and missing rank (which is damned stupid if you ask me).




When the Kelvin rammed Narada, why didn’t the explosion finish Nero off right then? Yes, I know it would have made for a very short film and yes, I know the warp drive was off-line but reality can be suspended only so much. The antimatter fuel is still there and at no time was there any mention of ejecting the bottles. There also would have been enough residue in the engines to make a thermonuclear explosion a certainty. Also, why not arm the self-destruct package to make sure you take him with you? My belief has been if you’re going to go down fighting, make sure to take the b****** with you.
Well, according to the Countdown comic, the Narada is not only a future Romulan vessel, but has been outfitted with Borg technology. We've seen before that if a ship rams into a borg cube the cube just gets on with it. So, I guess the Narada is just too powerful to let a nuclear explosion drag it down.



When Uhura was ordering some drinks at the bar, she mentions a Cardassian drink. This struck me as being out of place and odd. They’re a post-TMP / TNG race. Do they even fit in this series? If so, why not bring in some Ferengi or Bolians?
Well, I think that in order for a species to be space faring they would have been around longer than the 70 years between TOS and TNG so why would they not be known to the Federation in the new universe?



Spock from TNG is now stranded in this alternate universe? He’s from the future so why not use the Guardian of Forever to return to his proper time and universe?
Well, in order to do that he has to go back and stop Nero in the TNG era and restore the original timeline. That means no more sequels for JJ.


One time, it was stated the Fleet was engaged in so-and-so sector. Is the Federation at war? Where does it fit (aside from being a plot device for Enterprise’s commissioning) in the grand scheme of things?
It's a long established Trek plot hole that when the shit hits the fan the Enterprise is the only ship in the quadrant!!!

Will Admiral Pike remain in the wheelchair? My hope is not; the character deserves something better.
How about a desk job?

Will TNG Spock be able to get home? I don’t like the idea of leaving him stranded in this universe, especially after all the man’s gone through.
I don't think there is anything for him to go back to. If Nero changed history then he changed history. I don't buy all this guff from Bob Orci that the prime timeline still exists alongside the new one. If that were the case then in the City on the Edge of Forever Kirk and Spock need not have gone back after McCoy since there universe was still out there somewhere.

At the very end, we see Pike in a very TMP-looking uniform. Does this mean we’ll see the monster maroons or some variation? Will we go to those awful-looking TMP uniforms or will we see the TOS uniforms remaining for some time?
No way to tell.

At no time was there a mention of to what class the Enterprise belonged. Are we sticking to the Constitution-class nomenclature or is it the often-debated Enterprise-class? Just bugs me not to know for sure what class this is.
I think its safe to say that the new production team don't give a crap about that sort of detail.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:38 AM   #1376
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Re: Lexington1709's take on Star Trek XI

Honestly, who cares what Uhura orders at the bar? It is nowhere established when the UFP made first contact with the Cardassian Union.

And other than in the most recent Trek films, the antagonist let the Enterprise go because he just couldn't be arsed. I thought that was cool.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:48 AM   #1377
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Tom Servo wrote: View Post
See this is the problem, I get the messages behind TWOK and TVH, but I guess if I didn't get them, I wouldn't understand according to you. Well it seems that you can't understand the message behind this film because it's right out there in your face the whole time. It's about loyalty, friendship and becoming who you were truly meant to be, and how event's around us shape our lives in ways we could not possibly imagine. There is a message there, a great one, and I'm sorry you can't see it.
Oh, wow, loyalty and friendship. The only way this film could be more provocative is if it also promoted motherhood and apple pie. (Oh, wait, it does do motherhood, too. Daring social commentary there!... )

Good SF is about getting people to look at things they take for granted from new perspectives, not just reinforcing obvious preconceptions.

May I ask how did this film INSULT YOUR INTELLIGENCE? What did it do to slap you in the face? Honestly, there was nothing in this film that films like TWOK and TVH didn't have as well. A torpedo that can instantaneously give life to a planet? Spock mind melding a whale?
I've already written at length about the film's glaring flaws in story logic. (And IMHO, they're more severe and more numerous than any other Trek film except STV:TFF. Although regardless, "other movies were bad, too!" isn't much of a defense.)

You seem to be getting awfully personal in your arguments here, though. Surely you've noticed that even quite a few people who like the movie are willing to concede that, as Cyke101 put it,

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
...[it's] not the most complex or deepest Trek movie out there, and once again the film continues the trend for Trek to be more about fighting than actually going where no man has gone before...
But if you really want a(nother) itemized list of story problems, here's another poster ready to oblige...

AJBryant wrote: View Post
So how come we all already know about Romulan ships? Kirk recognizes it and knows who they were...

Doctors do not attend the academy. They aren't line officers. Ensigns are not 17. They are graduates of the academy, and 21 at least...

So the Enterprise doesn't have a brig, Spock has to actually eject Kirk off onto an ice planet? Since when is marooning people to their possible deaths part of Starfleet regs?...
(And I feel compelled to point out here, too, that this ice planet was somehow in an orbit very close to the hot, desert planet of Vulcan...)

But back to our list!...
Promoting a third-year cadet to first officer? And then captain? The hell?...

And... hey. Afterthought. You mean someone can't fire a photon torpedo or something at that drill? Vulcan has NO planetary defenses?...

...it wasn't MY Star Trek. Among other things, I really missed my "Trek music" cues. The beauty shots of the Enterprise *screamed* for them. Will I see it again? Yeah, probably. I will buy the DVD, of course.

But... damn. I'm really not happy.
And I'd add to that that apparently Earth has no planetary defenses either. Not so much as a missile or an armed shuttle. Because Kirk and, later, Spock both proved that orbital drill is actually pretty damned easy to take out. Hell, hand weapons can do it!

BTW, AJB, let me say that I relate to the overall thrust of your post beyond the list: a fresh start is one thing, but a fresh start that absolutely eliminates even the possibility of many of the best episodes of TOS is quite another thing. I'm surprised a lot more people haven't been rattling off lists of what's impossible now.

And I certainly agree with your overall conclusion... except that if you feel that way about it, I can't really imagine why you'd voluntarily put more money in the pockets of the people who made it. Doing so just sends the message, "I want more like this one!"

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
What i didn't like:

- Kirk riling up Spock to gain command.. imagine you are part of the bridge crew and see a cadet getting into an officers face on the worst day of his life losing his mother and his planet, then getting his ass handed to him by said commander (awesome scene btw) only to sit down in the captains chair.
I wouldn't have followed Kirk if i were a superior officer (and there have to be people on the bridge who have finished academy and were at least Ensigns which outrank a Cadet every time). I would have at least taken over until a senior officer could arrive on the bridge to take over personally.
I don't believe it was Pike's intention to have a cadet commanding the flaship of the Federation no matter his heritage and drive.

- Kirk getting command of the Enterprise permanently? Really?
Sum it up: You haven't finished the academy properly (3 out of 4 years.. no indication it was Kirks final year or that he really managed to finish in 3 instead of 4), were insubordinate to a superior officer AND cheated during an official academy test yet you are given the command of the Flagship of the Federation.

Gimme a break. If i were a command officer in Starfleet i'd file an official protest at this. Kirk is command material but you don't just finish academy and instantly get command of a huge and important ship. You get maybe be Lieutenant (skipping Ensign) but then you work up. Kirk may have done this in record time and become the youngest Captain ever (like he did in TOS) but that was a bit too much.
Acknowledging that you obviously liked the movie a whole lot more than I did, we can still agree that this was one helluva thing to ask us to swallow.

(And they undermined Spock's change of command almost immediately anyway by having him turn around and participate in the away mission onto the Narada, with no one questioning his competence. And of course Kirk went too, leaving essentially no one in command.)

And BTW, it wasn't just Kirk getting a huge promotion at the end. Apparently the entire bridge crew of Starfleet's flagship (aside from Spock) will now be made up of newly graduated cadets with exactly one mission under their belts.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:55 AM   #1378
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

You know lawman, as time passes more and more people seem to be having problems with these glaring errors and I predict as time goes on the gushers will reduce and the criticism will grow until this movie takes its place in Trek history as a pretty average flick with fancy special affects....but a bloody awful script.

But then I knew that the story was doomed to failure as soon as I heard that the award winning writers of the oscar worthy Transformers had gotten their grubby mitts on it.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:57 AM   #1379
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Thanks Mutenroshi

Apologies for that whining post, it was mainly based on an argument I had with a few mates on facebook, and then then exact same argument with MY MOTHER via sms. I guess she's kicking me out of the basement...

Anyway, I forgot to mention that this film had me choked up, seriously almost shedding tears, during George Kirk's death not ten minutes in. That moment where he hears his newborn son letting out a first cry over the communicator, a father making the absolute most the only contact he'll ever have with his child. The inevitability of it, the sense that George was trying to express a lifetime of love into those short few minutes.

My god JJ & Co, you got me. You really got me. I don't know if that was the mooshy parent in me or if a crying baby is just a cheap tear-inducing device (). Nah, it was quite a well played moment. Credit where it's due, etc.

Note to Hollywood: Please stop giving Eric Bana work. Please?
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Old May 11 2009, 12:03 PM   #1380
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Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

It's been a very long time since I've posted in the TrekBBS Forum... But I just saw the new film last night and was so totally blown away..! I thought the film worked on just about every level, and I feel reassured about one thing:

Star Trek is alive. Star Trek is back..!
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