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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old April 30 2009, 09:09 PM   #991
startrekwatcher
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
There has been big debates over the years about who is to blame for Voyager's aversion to risk-taking and continuity, was it the writers, producers or network interference? I seriously doubt that the producers or the network were preventing the writers from adding a few lines into a script about where all these extra shuttles and torpedoes were coming from, so this is a problem which can be fairly pinned on the writers.
No, I think this is a non-issue made a big deal by some fans who had made the shuttle/torpedo thing their own personal crusade and rightly so the writers figured it wasn't worth devoting a lot of resources storywise to and just assumed fans could figure out where the shuttles and torpedoes were coming. There are plenty of other valid criticisms of the show but in my opinion this wasn't one of them.
This proves that the writers weren't really interested in what was going on in their own show.
Hardly. Bad characterization, inconsistent characterization, silly plots, boring episodes, shallow romance, the last minute abrupt C/7 romance, introducing the Borg Civil War and then not going anywhere with it, telling not one but two Irish holoprogram fluff in one season with a whole new Quadrant of alien life to exploit etc are the proof the writers weren't that interested and burnt out.
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Old April 30 2009, 09:19 PM   #992
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Janeway said the torpedoes were irreplacable yet they always seemed to use the same torpedoes. There was an episode where they were going to buy new weapons...but didn't. Would it have killed them to mention once that they had replenished their torpedo complement?
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Old April 30 2009, 09:53 PM   #993
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
This proves that the writers weren't really interested in what was going on in their own show.
Hardly. Bad characterization, inconsistent characterization, silly plots, boring episodes, shallow romance, the last minute abrupt C/7 romance, introducing the Borg Civil War and then not going anywhere with it, telling not one but two Irish holoprogram fluff in one season with a whole new Quadrant of alien life to exploit etc are the proof the writers weren't that interested and burnt out.
But those are also the hallmarks of bad writers who don't know what they are doing, those things don't necessarily mean that the writers didn't care about what they were producing. A bad writer who cares about their show is almost indistinguishable from a good writer who treats their show like a job. The level of attention to detail is one way of telling them apart.
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Old April 30 2009, 09:56 PM   #994
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

That's a good point, GodBen. I hadn't thought of it that way.
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Old April 30 2009, 10:53 PM   #995
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tomalak wrote: View Post
But how the hell can you mess up a meal with a food replicator? There's even a reference to her burning a meatloaf or something. Bizarre.
Yeah, that one had me go too. I rewatched Ashes to Ashes the other day and also found that bit rather questionable. I see what they were going for (cheap humor), but considering what we learned about the replicator throughout all the series this was just plain silly.

JustKate wrote: View Post
So I don't know why you have to restart the screencap game. I'd take it personally if I were you.
The reason is simple – to attract newer members to also join in on the fun. Members who might otherwise feel intimidated by a thread that has already over a thousand replies. And I understand that sentiment.

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
Did we actually need an episode dedicated to us seeing them finding resources, replicating or constructing parts and building a new shuttlecraft?
Well, if you describe it that way it does sound very boring. I wouldn't want to watch that either. But with the help of my vast imagination I am actually able to think of ways to make the search/fight for resources very interesting and dramatic. Voyager's very premise pretty much demanded for the writers to deal with these issues on-screen. (Because why else would you establish that premise in the first place if telling the same old stories is what you really want to do?) And you are correct, there are episodes which mention them finding resources and replicating or constructing parts. But those things are never really the point of their respective episodes. (Which, really, they should be.) Mostly they are merely a motor to craft the generic science-fiction plot they really want to tell.

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
At the end of the day, VOY had plenty of problems centering around the most fundamental aspects of a tv show--namely the writing and bland characters. Not arcs, not shuttles, not torpedo counts, not missing Borg babies.
Yes, and they were all symptoms of the same disease: Bad writing.

Praetor wrote: View Post
When one of the key aspects of the premise is that Our Heroes don't have limitless supplies, I think at least a casual reference to building more shuttles was indeed fully necessary. It's not a failure to fill in gaps, it's that we shouldn't have to fill in these gaps in the first place when these gaps are a failure to fully execute the series' premise.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
Stuff like Fun with DNA, people falling through the floor when they are interphased, five different alien species evolving on one world, humanity volving into a salamander-type creature in the far distant future are things I'm willing to go along with despite their scientific veracity so long as the larger story they are in is entertaining.
Which many times it sadly wasn't.

Don't get me wrong. I like Voyager, I really do. But that doesn't mean I can't criticize it. Look at it this way, I criticize it because I like it. And because I really wanted to love it.
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Old May 1 2009, 12:38 AM   #996
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Favourite Son (0)

Need I explain?
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Old May 1 2009, 12:46 AM   #997
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

No, but I really hope you like the next episode. I'd probably put it in the top 5 episodes of the series for me. The Introduction of the cute, but oh so brief Jennifer Lien.
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Old May 1 2009, 12:47 AM   #998
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Favourite Son (0)

Need I explain?
No. I think that's pretty elaborate and detailed. With your review you clearly went into detail about every recommendable aspect of this episode.
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Old May 1 2009, 12:50 AM   #999
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

By the way, last night I watched Rise and didn't find it to be that bad. I liked what it did to the Neelix/Tuvok relationship and just really liked Neelix as a whole in this episode. Didn't like the guest characters all that much and the alien plot felt tacked on but in this Triumverate of terror, Rise was probably the best one. I also liked Darkling to an extent as well but yeah it wasn't all that terrific.
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Old May 1 2009, 01:11 AM   #1000
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Favourite Son (0)

Need I explain?
Ahhhh, I forgot about that episode. Voyager at it's absolute worst.

Hang in there. Some people here will argue this, but the show just gets so much better from season 4 onwards.
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Old May 1 2009, 01:14 AM   #1001
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

destro wrote: View Post
Some people here will argue this, ...
I won't. Season four was definitely one of Voyager's strongest. It's a shame they couldn't really live up to that quality in the subsequent seasons.
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Old May 1 2009, 01:58 AM   #1002
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I thought season 5 was just as good as season 4 if not better.

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
No, but I really hope you like the next episode. I'd probably put it in the top 5 episodes of the series for me. The Introduction of the cute, but oh so brief Jennifer Lien.
"Before & After" is one of my top 5 Voyager episodes as well.
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Old May 1 2009, 02:11 AM   #1003
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Those of you who love graphs... standby.
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Old May 1 2009, 03:09 AM   #1004
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I came to the conclusion that my season round-up segment where I focus on Braga is a little too narrow-minded, so I've decided to expand it to include all the main staff writers on Voyager. To do this I have gone back to seasons 1 and 2 and collected the data I needed and made some graphs which hopefully everyone should be able to understand. Ready? Then lets begin.


Season 1



The blue bars represent the average score each writer attained and the green bar is the season average. This list only includes writers who wrote more than one episode, one-off writers were not included. The number in the brackets next to each name represents how many episodes the writer wrote, so Jeri Taylor and Kenneth Biller wrote two each while Michael Piller and Brannon Braga wrote 4.

As you can see, Taylor and Biller had a good year while Braga and Piller ended up as average but below the season average.


Season 2



Menosky wins this season, but only because he only wrote one episode (he is included because he writes a hell of a lot more later on). Piller makes a nice comeback to score 6.5 for the season, newcomer Lisa Klink gets an average, Biller and Taylor fall from grace to score 4 each, and Braga languishes behind them all.


Overall



This is a combination of seasons 1 & 2, Menosky's lead is a statistical anomaly since he only has one episode, so Michael Piller is the real winner with a score of 5.75 out of 8 episodes. Taylor gets ever so slightly above the series average, Biller is slightly under average and Braga has a score of only 4.2 out of 10 episodes. Poor guy.


I plan to keep this up over the course of the show so the next update on this will be in my season 3 round-up in about a week. Once I am finished I will be able to determine who I believe to be Voyager's best and worst writers.

Why am I doing this? Because my PC broke down and I've been running a HDD test for two hours and I needed something to pass the time.
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Old May 1 2009, 03:10 AM   #1005
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Thus, with Favorite Son, we really hit the age of Voyager's Fun With DNA mindset. Need to do something wacky with the characters that lets the make-up people come up with something new and different with the old familiar styles? DNA did it!

To paraphrase Morbo, 'DNA does not work that way! Good night!'

Last edited by DGCatAniSiri; May 1 2009 at 03:21 AM.
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