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Old April 30 2009, 12:09 AM   #931
neogothboy74
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Whoa. I've missed a lot....so...long reply. My bad.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Future's End, Part 2 (**½)
The arrival of the Doctor's mobile emitter is the only thing that allows me to stomach these episodes. The redneck plot in part 2 is just terrible. Ick.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Warlord (**½)
I agree with the rating. It could have been worse, but wasn't very good. I did like Jennifer's performance and the semi-gay / bi stuff.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Q and the Grey (*)

Janeway wrote:
But what is not insignificant is the fact that the Q, as an omnipotent race, have an opportunity to be a positive force to set a higher standard for other beings in the galaxy. I implore you all, don't go through with this. Don't allow yourselves to continue using violence to resolve your differences.
30 seconds later a group of Humans stormed over the hill and started shooting with weapons that can destroy entire star-systems. I believe that shows the level of thought which went into this episode.
I find this episode almost unwatchable, except for Lady Q. She amuses me, even though much of her is poorly written - I think the actress made her significantly better than the writing did. But not enough to make me rewatch this episode.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Macrocosm (*½)
I missed this episode when it first aired, and only got to see it when I bought the DVDs. I thought the story was terrible. I thought the virus made no sense. I did think they made the virus icky enough...the rest of the story was just...it didn't quite arrive though, and that's a shame.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Fair Trade (***½)
I'd rate this one **1/2. It's one of those episodes where I can see that the quality is better than average, yet I don't care.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Alter Ego (*)
I liked this one more than you. I'd give it ***. Tuvok's random behavior and his blaming it all on being a Vulcan is the norm, so by this time I didn't really take that as a negative. I also thought the guest actress did a great job, and I liked the idea of the nebula and the alien makeup and I just liked it. It's more than the sum of it's parts for me.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Coda (0)
I'd give it * simply because I don't do the zero stars thing. But this is another episode that feels like it had a good idea behind it that just went horribly wrong in execution. There are things in it that I want to like, but don't. The time loop is the thing that annoys me most. I just...don't want to be reliving those lame scenes over and over again. The first time was bad enough...and then...ugh. The ingrediants are there for something better than this...but they never quite came to a boil.

And for the record - I like Janway / Chakotay. I'd just prefer their moments be better written...and watchable.

NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
Janeway admitting feelings for Chakotay when she (appearently) sees him grieve and the appearance of her father after she dies – could very well be implemented in a version of the episode that doesn't use the arbitrary déjà vu device and the malicious alien element. I actually liked those aspects as well, because they told us something about Janeway. But the nonsensical plot elements they used to get there are absolutely unnecessary and distracting. The episode would have been better without them. In my opinion that is.
Exactly! I'm not bashing J/C peeps by not liking this episode; I am a J/C fan...so that would be pointless. I just wish such elements were in episodes that I enjoyed watching.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
The best example I can give you is ask "could the Dominion war been shown as Next Gen episodes?"
TNG could have done a Dominion War story, but it would have been different from the war we saw on DS9. I could never see Picard accepting himself as Emissary and asking the Prophets to destroy a Dominion fleet, and I certainly couldn't see Picard doing what Sisko did in In the Pale Moonlight. I can't see Riker organising a resistance movement against the Cardassian occupation, I can't see Crusher getting involved with Section 31, I can't see Wesley trying to stop Red Squad going on a suicide mission. And I can't see anybody else as Garak.
Pretty much what I was going to say in response. I'd also expand on that by saying that while Next Generation could have had a Dominion War storyline, I don't think it would have been as impressive simply because the characters on Next Generation weren't as developed as those on DS9. Besides the fact that I don't see the Enteprise (or Voyager) camping outside the wormhole for the rest of the series - but with DS9 it made sense.

GodBen wrote: View Post
I had hoped I wouldn't have to do this, but since my non-review of Coda has caused some consternation I will now rip it apart and show everybody exactly why this episode failed to earn any points.
I agreed with everything you said in this section of your review, but especially this bit:

GodBen wrote: View Post
Then we have the memorial service in the mess hall and Kim gives a speech. Oh boy... You all know the old axiom "show, don't tell", well this episode completely ignores that. Kim tells the story about a time when he and Janeway ate some fruit together on a planet and it is really emotional and blah-blah-blah. The whole thing felt very phony and later I figured out why; not only did this scene never happen on screen, but the only time I can remember Janeway and Kim having any kind of heart-to-heart was at the end of Emanations, and that wasn't all that personal. The fact is that Janeway and Kim do not have a great relationship and pretending that they do just doesn't work.
This is one of those 'false continuity' moments that could have been great...if there had been anything to build it on except the words of the characters in whatever episode they're talking in. This happens more than once in Voyager and it irks me to no end. Compare this funeral scene to the one in DS9's "The Visitor" in which we only hear a fragment of what Kira has to say about Sisko yet it completely resonates with everything we've ever seen between those two characters. Maybe that's the real problem here; nothing seems real; nothing resonates with any real emotions - all the emotion here is fake. It makes this Voyager scene seem like a farce, when it should be pulling at heart strings. I'm not saying that this scene failed because we didn't see the encounter that he spoke of - I'm saying it failed because we never saw any indication that the scene he described would have happened. It's just...ugh. It hurts my head to think about it.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Blood Fever (***)
Unity (****)
I've always, always really enjoyed these episodes! They're fun. And I like that something that turns up in 'Blood Fever' comes to a head in 'Unity'. And we knew that the Borg came from the Delta Quadrant from Next Generation so I was excited to finally see some Borg episodes (at this point) - and I was just very happy with these installments. I'm not saying they're perfect - but they're just so much better than a number of episodes that aired before them (and directly after them - though I didn't know that at the time), that by comparison I felt hopeful that the series had started to right itself. 2 good episodes in a row! I remember that these episodes aired around the same time as the spectacular DS9 2 parter "In Purgatory's Shadow" / "By Inferno's Light" - and also "Star Trek: First Contact" had been released about 3 months before, and I saw it again in a dollar theater about this time - and I was just so happy to be a Star Trek fan - with everything going so well in 3 different Trek incarnations. It didn't last of course...but it was a great couple of weeks.

Praetorian wrote: View Post
However, Season 3 manages to make a come back in the end, with five really good episodes, leading to the best season of Voyager.
I agree. I remember being very happy with the final episodes of Season 3, and loving MOST of Season 4. Season 4 of Voyager was the golden year of Trek for me. Season 6 of DS9 was kicking ass - and I remember thinking to myself that Voyager had finally, thankfully arrived!

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Darkling (½)
This episode sucks on so many levels that I've never been able to make it through the whole thing. And I've tried several times, and will again in the near future, as something from this episode turns up in the new Voyager novel and I want to understand whats going on. Or maybe that was just an odd nightmare that I had... I'll have to double check.

GodBen wrote: View Post
NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
Jaespol wrote: View Post
Why should every episode have consequences?
Funny, you make it sound like most of the episodes had consequences.
There has been lots of consequences this season; Shmullus lost all his memories, Janeway's character was profoundly changed by the events in Sacred Ground, half the crew was killed off by the macrovirus and they spent that year in the vast and dangerous Nekrit expanse. There was tonnes of consequences.



Seriously, in answer to Jaespol's question, consequences make things interesting. Consequences are what makes drama drama, otherwise it is just a series of random events. The decisions I have made in my life have all had consequences, both for good and for bad, and I have had to deal with the fall-out of messy situations which I got myself into. If I am going to have an emotional connection to the characters on this show then I have to be able to connect to them, and if their lives are absent of consequences then I have no way of making that connection.

That has been the biggest problem I have faced with season 3, I am not clicking with the characters like I managed to do sometimes during the first two seasons and as I did most of the time on DS9 or nuBSG. Without that connection I find the stories uninvolving and ultimately meaningless.
Indeed. Continuity demands consequences. Character development demands consequences. Realism (even in a fantasy based series) demands consequences.

GodBen wrote: View Post
I'm a fair man (ha! ) so I'll open it to a vote. Does everyone want me to stop with the Shmullus references?
Well it doesn't bother me, but it doesn't seem to represent the Doctor. I mean...he doesn't really have a name. Which was just another storyline that went nowhere. Calling him Shmullus doesn't bother me because I know what character you're referring to, but it's almost like you're giving the writers more credit than they are due.

Again - Sorry for the long reply. I just wanted to comment on stuff. Please continue.

Last edited by neogothboy74; April 30 2009 at 12:30 AM.
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Old April 30 2009, 12:19 AM   #932
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ No need to apologise. I enjoyed reading your thoughts.
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Old April 30 2009, 12:26 AM   #933
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Well I'm glad I managed to not annoy everyone with my long delayed thoughts.

Thanks for taking the time to read them.
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Old April 30 2009, 12:42 AM   #934
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
The Darkling (½)
This episode sucks on so many levels that I've never been able to make it through the whole thing. And I've tried several times, and will again in the near future, as something from this episode turns up in the new Voyager novel and I want to understand whats going on. Or maybe that was just an odd nightmare that I had... I'll have to double check.
Try watching it while playing with a broken popsicle stick, it helps to pass the time. And welcome back, I didn't realise you'd been away so long.


Rise (**½)

Get a group of characters, put them in a confined and hazardous space and watch them get on each other's nerves; the results are usually interesting and this episode is no exception. The story that takes place on the space elevator is mostly interesting before the plot takes over. Neelix is bearable and Tuvok isn't an asshole like he was back in Alter Ego.

There is a very good scene where Neelix confronts Tuvok about his hatred for him and how that is an emotional response. I hadn't considered that before, and I can't believe I'm about to say this, but Neelix is right. Tuvok does hate Neelix, and here he comes to realise that which is a big thing for a Vulcan. If the episode had focused on this more then we would have had a real winner.

Unfortunately there's a plot, and not a very good one. There's some boring stuff about artificial asteroids and evil aliens and murders and a lot of other rubbish which the episode didn't need. It should have just been a normal asteroid that hit the planet rather than adding in all this needless plot which gets in the way and ultimately detracts from the episode.

As for the shuttle which crashed, I'm going to be really fair and suggest that it was recovered from the surface somehow, just like the one that crashed in Coda. But they are really pushing me on this issue.

Torpedoes: 21/38


Now as for the situation with Doctor S, I have decided I will no longer call him Shmullus. From now on I'm calling him Shmully in order to really confuse any random people who read the thread.
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Old April 30 2009, 12:58 AM   #935
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Wow, you found Neelix bearable in rise? For me this is Neelix at his worst. And I'm a Neelix apologist, slightly anyway.
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Old April 30 2009, 01:02 AM   #936
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Rise (**½)
I pretty much agree with your assessment of Rise. I was hoping you wouldn't outright hate this episode like many seem to do. And I'm glad you don't.

I think the combination of Tuvok and Neelix works wonderfully in this episode. I like this story because – like Fair Trade – it takes the character of Neelix a bit more seriously. Of course their scenes aren't all perfect, but both Ethan Phillips' and Tim Russ' performances helped me to esteem the notion of Neelix wanting Tuvok to respect him.

What I also like about this episode is the idea of the magnetic levitation carriage. I know, that's pretty superficial, but it felt original and was well exectued if you ask me. (And I wouldn't be surprised at all if in one of the succeeding posts someone mentions how impossible and impractical it actually was.) Oh, and like you, I have a fondness for stories set in a confined space.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Now as for the situation with Doctor S, I have decided I will no longer call him Shmullus. From now on I'm calling him Shmully in order to really confuse any random people who read the thread.
You should definitely go for it!
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Old April 30 2009, 01:13 AM   #937
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
The Darkling (½)
This episode sucks on so many levels that I've never been able to make it through the whole thing. And I've tried several times, and will again in the near future, as something from this episode turns up in the new Voyager novel and I want to understand whats going on. Or maybe that was just an odd nightmare that I had... I'll have to double check.
Try watching it while playing with a broken popsicle stick, it helps to pass the time. And welcome back, I didn't realise you'd been away so long.
Thanks. And I'll take your suggestion under advisement. Who knows? Maybe it could save the entire series?

GodBen wrote: View Post
Rise (**½)

There is a very good scene where Neelix confronts Tuvok about his hatred for him and how that is an emotional response. I hadn't considered that before, and I can't believe I'm about to say this, but Neelix is right. Tuvok does hate Neelix, and here he comes to realise that which is a big thing for a Vulcan. If the episode had focused on this more then we would have had a real winner.
Agreed. This is another episode that I missed when it aired, on purpose, because it just looked dreadful, and I was still smarting from 'Darkling'. When I caught the episode on DVD the above scene impressed me too. But it was the highlight of a rather lame episode.

So often with Voyager, there are these kinds of moments where I'm left wondering - why isn't this the heart of the episode? Why aren't the REAL character moments in 'Coda' the focus of the story? Why is Darkling about a wannabe split-personality that has no weight to it whatsoever, when all I wanted to know was what was going on with Kes? Why can't we have real emotions and real character depth and really look at that....and I think the sad truth is that the writers just didn't care enough to give us that. Because if they gave us those kinds of character revelations then they'd have to pay attention to the next story they told and it might be harder to force those characters into a situation in which the writers want them to react in a certain way, rather than in the way the character would have reacted as a result of their experiences in a previous episode. I do kind of understand that - there are stories that can't be told after a character moves from one place to another, and if you want to write those stories, you no longer can - but the question then becomes...does the telling of those stories become more important than the lives of the characters? For the Voyager writers that seemed to be the case. But for an audience that wants to love the series but then can't, the answer is definitely a no.

And I'm one of those audience members that wanted to love Voyager. It's Star Trek. And I love Star Trek. And yet the writing of Voyager makes it very hard for me to enjoy the series. Which is why I connect with this thread. It's not about hating Voyager. It's about wanting to love it and the reasons why it's nearly impossible to do so. And that wanting to love the show has never left me...which is why the disappointment with the viewing experience still hurts.

NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
What I also like about this episode is the idea of the magnetic levitation carriage. I know, that's pretty superficial, but it felt original and was well exectued if you ask me.
That's actually the part that I thought looked hokey in the trailer for the episode - but then when I actually saw it - I didn't have a problem with it at all, and I thought it worked rather well, which surprised me.

GodBen wrote: View Post
As for the shuttle which crashed, I'm going to be really fair and suggest that it was recovered from the surface somehow, just like the one that crashed in Coda. But they are really pushing me on this issue.

Torpedoes: 21/38
You're being more leniant than I would have been, but it's just an example of the kind of things you have to put your brain through to enjoy the series. You have to say - well, they went back SOMEHOW to get that shuttle. And I can understand that. I've done that many times. And though that helps me enjoy the episodes in question...I'm never really convinced.

It's also sad that the audience has to be the ones to keep track of how many shuttles and torpedoes they have. That's the kind of thing that the Voyager crew should have been seen worrying about. But that's an old complaint that everyone already understands...and I'll leave it alone for now.
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Old April 30 2009, 01:18 AM   #938
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Rise" almost made me slash my wrists with boredom. I really don't see how you could rate a fun romp like "Coda" below crap like "Rise".
Who cares if "Rise" had some character development, when it comes down to it it was horribly filmed and just plain boring.
I just don't understand what's going on in your mind GodBen
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Old April 30 2009, 01:24 AM   #939
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Jaespol wrote: View Post
"Rise" almost made me slash my wrists with boredom. I really don't see how you could rate a fun romp like "Coda" below crap like "Rise".
Who cares if "Rise" had some character development, when it comes down to it it was horribly filmed and just plain boring.
I just don't understand what's going on in your mind GodBen
If it helps, I don't understand your thought processes either...beyond understanding that everyone is different. Because for me 'Coda' wasn't a romp...and it certainly wasn't any fun. It just demonstrates that people respond to different stories differently. And it's not necessary that we agree or even understand one another; just that we acknowledge that we all have the right to our feelings and our reactions, and that because it's all subjective - all of our views are valid. And people not liking something that you enjoy shouldn't take away from your enjoyment, and if it does, I don't know why.
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Old April 30 2009, 01:29 AM   #940
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Please tell me your avatar is not a picture of you.
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Old April 30 2009, 01:32 AM   #941
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Jaespol wrote: View Post
Please tell me your avatar is not a picture of you.
I feel like I should be offended by this comment. You sound like you don't approve. It is a picture of me. I have nothing to hide. What's your point?

And this has what to do with the discussion of Voyager?
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Old April 30 2009, 01:47 AM   #942
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
Jaespol wrote: View Post
Please tell me your avatar is not a picture of you.
I feel like I should be offended by this comment. You sound like you don't approve. It is a picture of me. I have nothing to hide. What's your point?

And this has what to do with the discussion of Voyager?
I can't even see you that well but why do you feel the need to have an avatar of you in a fairly provocative monochrone pose?
Its just weird frankly.
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Old April 30 2009, 02:05 AM   #943
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Jaespol wrote: View Post
neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
Jaespol wrote: View Post
Please tell me your avatar is not a picture of you.
I feel like I should be offended by this comment. You sound like you don't approve. It is a picture of me. I have nothing to hide. What's your point?

And this has what to do with the discussion of Voyager?
I can't even see you that well but why do you feel the need to have an avatar of you in a fairly provocative monochrone pose?
Its just weird frankly.
Why do you feel the need to question my avatar? You're making personal comments about me (calling me weird) in a thread about Voyager. You're hurting my feelings. Why do you feel the need to do that? If you have something to say about the show, then do so. If you have something to say about me or to me then do so in private. And for the record I don't think it's provocative at all. Ooh...Shoulders...How Provocative! My Grandparents have that picture hanging in their hallway.
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Old April 30 2009, 02:10 AM   #944
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Jaespol wrote: View Post
I can't even see you that well but why do you feel the need to have an avatar of you in a fairly provocative monochrone pose?
Its just weird frankly.
Provocative? Weird? What the fuck? It's a beautifully photographed image (perfect lighting, interesting framing) of a bald man in a pose I interpret as reflective, melancholic and somewhat vulnerable. There's nothing whatsoever provocative or weird about it. And even if there was – why would that be a problem to you?

And why can't he wear an avatar that shows himself? That must be one of the most stupid things I have ever read on this board.
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Old April 30 2009, 02:13 AM   #945
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Hahaha, it was just my automatic reaction.
I just think its weird for someone's avatar on a Star Trek forum to be a picture of themself half naked, this isn't a social networking site after all, just exactly who are you trying to impress?
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