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Old April 27 2009, 02:40 AM   #871
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Brit wrote: View Post
For me it was an affirmation of the feelings Janeway had for Chakotay. In "Resoultions" we know he had feelings for her. In Coda we see her illusion that he would grieve if she died, she appearently cared that he would miss her. "Coda" was an attempt to incorporate some of the back story from "Mosiac" into Voyager canon.

I find it more interesting in that she could finally see through the alien's disguise. I also find it interesting that the alien chose her father as the image to project. It's as if he expected her to "obey" a parent figure, when she had been taught to question. Which saved her in the end.
Both elements – Janeway admitting feelings for Chakotay when she (appearently) sees him grieve and the appearance of her father after she dies – could very well be implemented in a version of the episode that doesn't use the arbitrary déjà vu device and the malicious alien element. I actually liked those aspects as well, because they told us something about Janeway. But the nonsensical plot elements they used to get there are absolutely unnecessary and distracting. The episode would have been better without them. In my opinion that is.
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Old April 27 2009, 04:43 AM   #872
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Coda (0)
Oh come on GodBen.

I admit Coda could have been better, it is not my fav episode either and I am J/Cer for crying out loud, but it's at least worth of **½. There are faaaar worse episodes you have given at least *.

But to each to its own, I guess. Tee hee.



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Old April 27 2009, 08:41 AM   #873
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Love Coda, but I have to admit that the death scenes make me cringe. First the Vidians and then the doctor...urgh. She just doesnt die well.
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Old April 27 2009, 08:49 AM   #874
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Mareika wrote: View Post
Nobody but me likes the J/C scenes in Coda?
I do! In a way.

I'm not an ardent J/C:er but I do see some chemistry between them.

As for "Coda", it was OK up to the last 5 minutes.
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Old April 27 2009, 11:41 AM   #875
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Brit wrote: View Post
For me it was an affirmation of the feelings Janeway had for Chakotay. In "Resoultions" we know he had feelings for her. In Coda we see her illusion that he would grieve if she died, she appearently cared that he would miss her. "Coda" was an attempt to incorporate some of the back story from "Mosiac" into Voyager canon.

I find it more interesting in that she could finally see through the alien's disguise. I also find it interesting that the alien chose her father as the image to project. It's as if he expected her to "obey" a parent figure, when she had been taught to question. Which saved her in the end.

Brit
Which came first, Mosaic or Coda? I know they're about the same sort of era.

To me the story in Mosaic is another reason why Coda is dissatisfying - either that or Mosaic as technically non Canon is incorrect. In Mosaic the incident of Janeway's father and fiance drowning is portrayed as the sole key event in shaping who she is, a massively traumatic experience. Especially as she tried to save them and couldn't.

In coda the fiance isn't mentioned at all, just the father going on about how he drowned. If the alien was reading her memories is this not a bit odd? If he's pretending to be her father would he not talk about the fiance who according to Mosaic he respected? Also, correct me if I'm wrong its been a while since I saw Coda but I don't think it even mentions Janeway being there when her father drowned? Coda mentions her sister dragging her out of bed and forcing her to get on with her life as we see in Mosaic - it makes no sense not to mention the fact she lost two people not just one.

Or did I just drop off the last time I watched Coda and miss references to Justin? Quite possible I've always felt a bit bamboozled and fed up after watching the time loop
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Old April 27 2009, 11:45 AM   #876
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Coda mentions her sister dragging her out of bed and forcing her to get on with her life as we see in Mosaic
???
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Old April 27 2009, 11:53 AM   #877
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Have I remember that wrongly? I haven't got season three on DVD yet, can't check. I read Mosaic very recently and that bit felt familiar.....
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Old April 27 2009, 11:56 AM   #878
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well, it's been awhile since I have watched Coda as well, but that is something I remember from Mosaic, but not from Coda. Can't say for sure, tho.
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Old April 27 2009, 02:59 PM   #879
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I had hoped I wouldn't have to do this, but since my non-review of Coda has caused some consternation I will now rip it apart and show everybody exactly why this episode failed to earn any points. I'll start with the first scene.

NEELIX: Captain, do you have a minute?
JANEWAY: Just about a minute. I'm on my way to the shuttlebay.
NEELIX: I thought last night went well, didn't you?
JANEWAY: Extremely well. Everyone had a lot of fun.
NEELIX: I was thinking of making it a regular feature, say once a month?
JANEWAY: It's certainly worth a try.
NEELIX: And Captain, you were especially good last night.
JANEWAY: Thanks Neelix. It's been a while.
NEELIX: You'd never know. Now, Captain, I, do you think, I mean, I, I, I was wondering if,
JANEWAY: What is it, Neelix?
NEELIX: Could you possibly keep Mister Tuvok busy on the bridge that evening?
JANEWAY: I'm sure something could be arranged. Our secret, Neelix.
NEELIX: We never had this discussion.
Why was this scene played for sexual innuendo? I don't know if this was intended by the script or if it was a directorial choice or if it was just something the actors did, but this was over-played and unfunny. The last thing I want to think about is Neelix and his junk.

Then we go to a scene where Janeway and Chakotay are in a shuttle together. Why? That's not explained until we've seen them be killed a half dozen times, but apparently they were going to a planet to collect samples. The captain and the first officer? Collecting samples? In a shuttle together?

You have frakking science officers for that sort of bullshit! You don't send your captain and first officer away in a shuttle when you have no way of replacing them. Have these morons learned nothing from what happened in Resolutions?!!

Then the shuttle crashes, which is something that is so overdone on this show that I am completely desensitised to it.

Now we enter the near-death experience part of this episode, and the first thing that happens is that the Vidiians show up and act as typical villains. I know this isn't real, but this just furthers the destruction of this initially fantastic species.

Janeway dies, they're back in the shuttle and you realise that they are revising the plot of Cause and Effect. The loop repeats again and eventually they end up on Voyager where Shmullus diagnoses Janeway with the phage. This is the first time that the episode comes across a plot more interesting than the one they eventually go with but for some reason they decide not to go down that route.

Then we get one of the most hideous scenes in the episode, Shmullus "euthanising" Janeway. I'm in favour of legalising euthanasia because I don't believe a patient should have to suffer if they choose not to, and one of the most ridiculous accusations presented by those who oppose euthanasia is that doctors would then start killing patients without their consent in order to lower their workload. This scene only serves to reinforce this stupid argument and I cannot stand it.

Time loops, Janeway dies again, then we realise the whole episode up until this point was pointless. A good plot twist is one that makes you think "Ooooh, now I understand. That makes perfect sense." A bad plot twist is one that makes you think "That's it?!" This episode has the latter.

Then the episode becomes a rehash of The Next Phase, the crew thinks Janeway is dead but she is a ghost-like figure who is invisible and can move through objects. She tries to get the crew to find her in some predictably boring scenes, and then her father shows up. Now this episode has a chance to be something meaningful at long last, but I never got the sense that anything which was going on was anything more than mundane, which is really surprising considering the circumstances.

Then we have the memorial service in the mess hall and Kim gives a speech. Oh boy... You all know the old axiom "show, don't tell", well this episode completely ignores that. Kim tells the story about a time when he and Janeway ate some fruit together on a planet and it is really emotional and blah-blah-blah. The whole thing felt very phony and later I figured out why; not only did this scene never happen on screen, but the only time I can remember Janeway and Kim having any kind of heart-to-heart was at the end of Emanations, and that wasn't all that personal. The fact is that Janeway and Kim do not have a great relationship and pretending that they do just doesn't work.

Then Janeway's dad turns evil and starts demanding that Janeway join him in the afterlife, which turns all orange and evil-looking just in case the ham-fisted dialogue was too subtle for the more stupid members of the audience. Luckily Janeway starts getting flashes of what is going on in reality and she manages to hear important parts of the conversation so that she can figure out that her father is really an alien infestation. Then Janeway's dad says this:

ADMIRAL JANEWAY: Eventually you'll come into my Matrix and you will nourish me for a long, long, time.
Subtle.

JANEWAY: Go back to hell, coward.
How did this episode not win an emmy for writing?

Everything is explained away, there is absolutely no ambiguity, and you realise that everything which happened in this episode didn't really happen. None of the "touching" scenes of the crew reacting to Janeway's death were real, they were a fantasy she herself created because she believes that people should act that way when she dies. I'd like to think that people would be very sad about my death too, even though the reality would probably involve church bells ringing over the joyous news and my funeral will involve people defecating on my corpse.

Then we have one last scene between Janeway and Chakotay which is so pleased with itself and its terrible dialogue that it actually made me nauseous.

0 stars.


I watched Blood Fever yesterday and I haven't had a chance to review it yet because of the fall-out from Coda, so I'll post this now and try to get around to Blood Fever later this afternoon.
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Last edited by TheGodBen; April 27 2009 at 04:18 PM.
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Old April 27 2009, 03:06 PM   #880
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ This man speaks the truth.
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Old April 27 2009, 06:27 PM   #881
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well said, GodBen. That in-depth analysis was spot-on in what was wrong with this episode.

NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
^ This man speaks the truth.
As do you:

NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
You are forgetting the true premise, it's not a "near death experience" it's an attack by an alien desguised as a near death experience.
Yes, but the point is that GodBen – and myself, I might add – think that it would have been a better episode if it was a genuine near-death experience. Really, what story did this episode (as it is) tried to tell? To me the answer is: Nothing. I think it's just many arbitrary science-fiction elements slapped together; without any real purpose. So, apart from superficial things like production values or good performances, what exactly are people getting out of this episode?
I agree with that, too.

What I got from it was a half-assed attempt at depicting a near-death experience in a sci-fi setting that was so self-indulgent in revelling in a supposedly clever nest of sci-fi cliches that it ended up delivering nothing. Even the character moments were stilted and poorly written.
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Old April 27 2009, 06:41 PM   #882
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

First off let it be known that I don't like "Coda" however some of your criticisms lobbied against it are bizarre.
GodBen wrote: View Post
NEELIX: Captain, do you have a minute?
JANEWAY: Just about a minute. I'm on my way to the shuttlebay.
NEELIX: I thought last night went well, didn't you?
JANEWAY: Extremely well. Everyone had a lot of fun.
NEELIX: I was thinking of making it a regular feature, say once a month?
JANEWAY: It's certainly worth a try.
NEELIX: And Captain, you were especially good last night.
JANEWAY: Thanks Neelix. It's been a while.
NEELIX: You'd never know. Now, Captain, I, do you think, I mean, I, I, I was wondering if,
JANEWAY: What is it, Neelix?
NEELIX: Could you possibly keep Mister Tuvok busy on the bridge that evening?
JANEWAY: I'm sure something could be arranged. Our secret, Neelix.
NEELIX: We never had this discussion.
Why was this scene played for sexual innuendo?
I never thought it was and you are the first person I've heard who has ever viewed it that way.
Then we go to a scene where Janeway and Chakotay are in a shuttle together. Why? That's not explained until we've seen them be killed a half dozen times, but apparently they were going to a planet to collect samples. The captain and the first officer? Collecting samples? In a shuttle together?
This is a tv show. The lead players have to be front and center. It is contrived but so what. I think had the episode held your attention then this would have been mitigated.
Then the shuttle crashes, which is something that is so overdone on this show that I am completely desensitised to it.
Apparently not, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it as a weakness of the episode. I never had an issue with the replenishing of shuttlecrafts.
Now we enter the near-death experience part of this episode, and the first thing that happens is that the Vidiians show up and act as typical villains. I know this isn't real, but this just furthers the destruction of this initially fantastic species.
It didn't bother me anymore than when say the Romulans were little more than a plot device in TNG's "The Next Phase".
Then we get one of the most hideous scenes in the episode, Shmullus "euthanising" Janeway. I'm in favour of legalising euthanasia because I don't believe a patient should have to suffer if they choose not to, and one of the most ridiculous accusations presented by those who oppose euthanasia is that doctors would then start killing patients without their consent in order to lower their workload. This scene only serves to reinforce this stupid argument and I cannot stand it.
I think this is more to do with you as a viewer than the scene itself. I certainly never saw it as a way to negatively portray euthanasia. It was simply a scene played for dark comedy and nothing more. Sometimes fans tend to project way more than they should and make something out of nothing in the process.
Time loops, Janeway dies again, then we realise the whole episode up until this point was pointless. A good plot twist is one that makes you think "Ooooh, now I understand. That makes perfect sense." A bad plot twist is one that makes you think "That's it?!" This episode has the latter.
This I agree with.
Then we have the memorial service in the mess hall and Kim gives a speech. Oh boy... You all know the old axiom "show, don't tell", well this episode completely ignores that. Kim tells the story about a time when he and Janeway ate some fruit together on a planet and it is really emotional and blah-blah-blah. The whole thing felt very phony and later I figured out why; not only did this scene never happen on screen, but the only time I can remember Janeway and Kim having any kind of heart-to-heart was at the end of Emanations, and that wasn't all that personal. The fact is that Janeway and Kim do not have a great relationship and pretending that they do just doesn't work.
Yes the memorial scene failed because it didn't emotionally resonate. It felt hollow and it certainly didn't help when the characters had very little history together.
I watched Blood Fever yesterday and I haven't had a chance to review it yet because of the fall-out from Coda, so I'll post this now and try to get around to Blood Fever later this afternoon.
The best part of Blood Fever was the last minute of the show and it was yet another case of the misleading UPN promos pulling a bait-and-switch. We tune in for the Borg and end up with a silly romance show where B'elanna pants for the better part of an hour like a dog. Ugh.
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Old April 27 2009, 07:41 PM   #883
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
I had hoped I wouldn't have to do this, but since my non-review of Coda has caused some consternation I will now rip it apart and show everybody exactly why this episode failed to earn any points. I'll start with the first scene.

NEELIX: Captain, do you have a minute?
JANEWAY: Just about a minute. I'm on my way to the shuttlebay.
NEELIX: I thought last night went well, didn't you?
JANEWAY: Extremely well. Everyone had a lot of fun.
NEELIX: I was thinking of making it a regular feature, say once a month?
JANEWAY: It's certainly worth a try.
NEELIX: And Captain, you were especially good last night.
JANEWAY: Thanks Neelix. It's been a while.
NEELIX: You'd never know. Now, Captain, I, do you think, I mean, I, I, I was wondering if,
JANEWAY: What is it, Neelix?
NEELIX: Could you possibly keep Mister Tuvok busy on the bridge that evening?
JANEWAY: I'm sure something could be arranged. Our secret, Neelix.
NEELIX: We never had this discussion.
Why was this scene played for sexual innuendo? . . . The last thing I want to think about is Neelix and his junk.

Ewww.... what creepy, sexual deviant-populated planet do you live on that you got that from this scene?

You're gross, man.
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Old April 27 2009, 08:18 PM   #884
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I didn't see any sexual innuendo either.
Maybe GodBen should stop watching episodes when he's both horny and uncomfortable/restless. Than might stop him from labelling good episodes sexual and boring.
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Old April 27 2009, 08:22 PM   #885
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
First off let it be known that I don't like "Coda" however some of your criticisms lobbied against it are bizarre.
In self defence, I'm a fairly bizarre person in general is it is par for the course. After all, you wouldn't be surprised if you heard Hitler say something anti-Semitic.

GodBen wrote:
Why was this scene played for sexual innuendo?
I never thought it was and you are the first person I've heard who has ever viewed it that way.
Watch it again and you'll see it. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the fact is that there is no other reason I could think of as to why Neelix didn't say "I thought last night's talent show went well, didn't you?" The fact that those words were relegated to the second scene suggests that the intention was to misdirect the audience into thinking something else, and the actor's mannerisms suggests it was done for comic effect.

I'm genuinely curious, did anybody else read this scene the way I did or do you think I'm way off the reservation?

This is a tv show. The lead players have to be front and center. It is contrived but so what. I think had the episode held your attention then this would have been mitigated.
While I would agree generally, in this case the lapse in logic was so blatant that I would have noticed it anyway. Plot drove character, character didn't drive plot and there was barely any attempt to explain why.

Apparently not, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it as a weakness of the episode. I never had an issue with the replenishing of shuttlecrafts.
I have a big issue with it, and I mentioned the shuttle-crash because a) it was a major plot-point and there is no way I could ignore it, and b) shuttle-crashes on this show have become a running joke.

It didn't bother me anymore than when say the Romulans were little more than a plot device in TNG's "The Next Phase".
Except the Romulans in The Next Phase acted like Romulans, they didn't act like storm-troopers.

I think this is more to do with you as a viewer than the scene itself. I certainly never saw it as a way to negatively portray euthanasia. It was simply a scene played for dark comedy and nothing more. Sometimes fans tend to project way more than they should and make something out of nothing in the process.
If there was a scene in the show which showed gay marriage as somehow invalidating straight marriages, or a scene advocating white supremacy, then I would have a violently negative reaction to it. It doesn't matter if it was played for laughs, if something is propagating a vile misconception then I will rally against it.

PolloCaballo wrote: View Post
Ewww.... what creepy, sexual deviant-populated planet do you live on that you got that from this scene?
And I just found my new location.
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