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Old April 23 2009, 01:49 AM   #826
Enterpriserules
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
The thing with Q is the success of the character on TNG was almost entirely thanks to the ability of John de Lancie to lift the often abysmal material into something memorable.

Look at Encounter at Farpoint - Q is the best thing in it, but the dialogue is abysmal. It's almost impossible to deliver, but JDL (as I shall henceforth call him!) puts in a virtuoso performance. A lesser actor could have killed off Star Trek's revivial before it had truly begun.

Fortunately in some of his later appearances, the writing improved. Then in Voyager, he became a one-note comic character, which is about as far from the original concept as you can get.
I hadn't thought about it this way before but you're right, Q was never just comic relief on TNG, he was always something more. It is almost like as if the Voyager writers didn't get the character.

I'm not sure how true this is, but sfdebris told a story in his review of Q Who that there was a line in the script where Q would shout "Stop! Or you will surely die!" but instead JDL just sat in his chair and said "Oh, please." The guy seemed to have a good handle on his character.


Macrocosm (*½)

AKA Genesis, Part 2. AAKA Brannon Braga has Trouble Learning From His Mistakes.

This is just Genesis again, only this time the hokey evolutionary science is replaced by hokey viral science. And the technobabble, oh lord, the technobabble...

I know this is a bit anal, but how does the macro-virus fly? It makes a buzzing sound like a bee, but it doesn't have any wings, it is just a big floating blob of CGI. This is the sort of thing I found myself thinking while watching the episode, so clearly I was bored. Janeway is an action hero, fine, but seeing her run around the ship in a sweaty tank-top stabbing giant viruses with a convenient knife, and blowing them up in a green explosion using a bomb with a quaint LED timer... they must have realised at some point that they took the concept too far.

The first acts are okay. I knew what was going to happen so there was no sense of mystery, but I do like the idea of coming back to a seemingly empty and powerless ship, that's one of the reasons why I don't hate Genesis. But when Shmullus spends 15 minutes of screen-time explaining everything the story gets lost and completely fails to make sense, there is no explanation as to where the crew is or why the ship is in such a bad state. And the final act is utterly ludicrous.

I'm feeling generous because my game of Empire Total War is going well, so I'll give the episode 2 stars and deduct half a star for Braga copying his own work.
I only liked Macrocosm because Janeway was in a tank top and all sweaty most of the episode.
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Old April 23 2009, 06:05 AM   #827
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Macrocosm" is one of few season 1-3 episodes which doesn't work for me. The story is thin and too much a rip-off from "Alien".

But I do find the Tak-Tak interesting!

However, they can't save this episode. I'll give it 1 point out of 5.
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Old April 23 2009, 10:50 PM   #828
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Fair Trade (***½)

This is a good episode, the first solidly good episode of the season, but it suffers a little towards the end because of how annoying Neelix can get. This is a very good use for his character, and I wish we had seen more stories about his past as a criminal because I doubt there will be any more. It seems like a waste that such a fascinating part of his past is relegated to one episode.

What I liked about this episode is that it makes the DQ feel alive in a way which Voyager has not managed this season. Season 1 was full of potential, season 2 had some interesting stories with the Kazon and Vidiians, but season 3 has so far been heavily reliant on the TNG-style alien of the week formula and it just makes this region of space seem bland. This is the first episode since Basics that makes the galaxy seem lived in and vibrant rather than an endless string of alien races who never interact with one another. The setting of this episode, a seedy trading-post out in the frontier, is something I would have loved to see more often. It reminds me a bit of the early seasons of DS9 before the station became an important strategic location.

My main problem with the episode is that Neelix doesn't really do anything wrong other than lie to protect his friend. He doesn't know he is taking part in an illegal narcotics trade, he doesn't kill the guy and he refuses to steal the plasma from Voyager. The episode acts like as if Neelix is being incredibly unethical, but that's not really the case. And he gets a little smug and annoying towards the end.

I enjoyed the episode and would love to see more like it, this is the sort of episode which uses the premise well and it is a pity there hasn't been more like it so far.
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Old April 23 2009, 10:58 PM   #829
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
The first season had so much promise, but this is beginning to turn into a struggle.
Just want to say I've really enjoyed reading this thread. I am also a hater but have no desire to go back and watch all the episodes again to see if I have a changed opinion. I know I've probably never seen 1/4 to 1/5 of them anyway. But I always dvr'd episodes Jammer rated high (which aren't many) on his reviews if I thought about it and caught them.


Sounds like your opinion hasn't really improved on the show. I'll be curious with your take once you finish.
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Old April 24 2009, 12:58 AM   #830
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post

I only liked Macrocosm because Janeway was in a tank top and all sweaty most of the episode.
Word for word, that's what I ALWAYS say.

I have to admit that this was the first time that i noticed that Kathryn was a beautiful woman. The sweat, the tank top and the rifle easily took 25 years off the stodgy impression of the Character I had been unidentifying with up to that point.
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Old April 24 2009, 01:00 AM   #831
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Indeed, I also consider "Fair Trade" a quite decent show...
Certanly one of the best Neelix shows, and actually using the premise of the series. And even making things go forward!
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Old April 24 2009, 01:24 AM   #832
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Fair Trade (***½)

This is a good episode, the first solidly good episode of the season, but it suffers a little towards the end because of how annoying Neelix can get. This is a very good use for his character, and I wish we had seen more stories about his past as a criminal because I doubt there will be any more. It seems like a waste that such a fascinating part of his past is relegated to one episode.
Totally agreed on this ep, in particular for the Neelix reason. I think a lot of the 'annoying' factor of Neelix was how they approached him without depth most of the time, and had they explored more of this duality of his character, I think he would have been both more interesting and more easily likable.

If you think about it, he's a tragic character (a coward who blames himself partially for his home's destruction) who tried to eek out his life the best he can and thereby more or less repressed all of the bad things that happened to him - now he's aboard Voyager and he doesn't have to worry about survival anymore. It stands to reason that once his basic needs are met, he would be cheerful and happy for a while but eventually, as he starts to realize he needs more than just surivval - that he needs acceptance, a purpose, and a meaning for life - that his feelings over his past would start to boil over and he would have to actually deal with them.

Comic relief is fine, but I'd have liked a more dynamic character, too.
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Old April 24 2009, 02:08 AM   #833
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Alex1939 wrote: View Post
Sounds like your opinion hasn't really improved on the show. I'll be curious with your take once you finish.
My opinion of the show has changed slightly because I remembered disliking season 1 and liking seasons 2 and 3, but it has ended up the other way around. If this continues then I'm going to absolutely love season 7.

Praetor wrote: View Post
If you think about it, he's a tragic character (a coward who blames himself partially for his home's destruction) who tried to eek out his life the best he can and thereby more or less repressed all of the bad things that happened to him - now he's aboard Voyager and he doesn't have to worry about survival anymore. It stands to reason that once his basic needs are met, he would be cheerful and happy for a while but eventually, as he starts to realize he needs more than just surivval - that he needs acceptance, a purpose, and a meaning for life - that his feelings over his past would start to boil over and he would have to actually deal with them.
Now that is an EXCELLENT idea, what a fantastic arc that would have been! But I guess that was never going to happen because it would have involved a complicated little thing called character motivation.
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Old April 24 2009, 02:19 AM   #834
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Character motivation? Yeah, we can't have any of that, now can we?
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Old April 24 2009, 08:39 PM   #835
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Alter Ego (*)

I don't think I ever saw the very beginning of this episode because I was of the opinion that the nebula in this episode was the Nekrit Expanse from Fair Trade. I'm a bit annoyed that it is not because I used to credit the episode for the small nod to continuity, but apparently it doesn't deserve it.

This is an episode which starts bad, there's a little bit of hope in the middle, and then it descends into rubbish territory. Tuvok acts like a completely out-of-character asshole at the beginning of this episode, he reminds me of how Spock acted in That Which Survives and that is not a good thing. "Vulcans do not mingle." No Tuvok, you don't mingle, stop attributing your societal failings as being part of your race, it is complete BS.

When Tuvok first meets Marayna there is a nice scene where it is clear she understands him and for a moment I thought she was going to call him on his BS so that he would come to a realisation about himself. But no, she's an evil hologram and she is going to strangle B'Elanna and destroy the ship!

Any act which ends with the line "<Insert demand here> or I'll destroy your ship!" needs to be jettisoned. It is lazy and cliched beyond redemption.

One thing which has always annoyed me about Star Trek is that the writers constantly mistake an interface with a computer. When on the holodeck, Paris shoots a computer panel and the evil holograms who are trying to kill them go away. This isn't a problem limited to Voyager, I've seen this on all the different Trek incarnations, and it makes about as much sense as saying that destroying my computer's keyboard will clear it of a virus.

The only redeeming quality I could find for this episode is one nice scene when Tuvok meets Marayna for the first time, everything else is pretty bad.
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Old April 24 2009, 09:49 PM   #836
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Oh, I enjoyed this one. I found it a quiet and pleasant episode. There was a little trepidation about the whole "hologram gains sentience" plot which had already been done to death, hell one of the main characters of Voyager is a sentient hologram, but the twist at the end made up for it.
And yes the "ship in jeopardy" angle was indeed lame.
However I consider this be an episode with decent dialogue and an interesting look into Tuvok's character...Didn't seem to be that out of characer, Vulcans and certanly Tuvok tend to be assholes and full of shit, but that's why I like them and Tuvok...
Besides didn't Maryane actually call him on his bullshit in a way? He showed interest in atleast mingling with her and even admited it...
Oh, and I also felt the Tuvok and Harry interaction somewhat refreshing..
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Old April 24 2009, 10:43 PM   #837
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

'Alter Ego' deserves a half-star at best. It was boring, uninspired, and utterly predictable.

VGR's attempt at 'Fatal Attraction'? We're lucky it didn't end with Neelix in a boiling pot...
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Old April 24 2009, 11:35 PM   #838
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Surely you mean "unlucky"?
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Old April 24 2009, 11:44 PM   #839
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
The thing with Q is the success of the character on TNG was almost entirely thanks to the ability of John de Lancie to lift the often abysmal material into something memorable.

Look at Encounter at Farpoint - Q is the best thing in it, but the dialogue is abysmal. It's almost impossible to deliver, but JDL (as I shall henceforth call him!) puts in a virtuoso performance. A lesser actor could have killed off Star Trek's revivial before it had truly begun.

Fortunately in some of his later appearances, the writing improved. Then in Voyager, he became a one-note comic character, which is about as far from the original concept as you can get.
I hadn't thought about it this way before but you're right, Q was never just comic relief on TNG, he was always something more. It is almost like as if the Voyager writers didn't get the character.
Here's the conclusion I came up with a number of years ago:

In TNG, Q usually had something to teach Picard, even if the lessons were harsh.

In VOY, Q usually needed Janeway's assistance.

Total role reversal. And definitely about as far from the original concept as you can get.
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Old April 24 2009, 11:50 PM   #840
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Lynx wrote: View Post

As for
I saw this as just another reason why Voyager was a turd sandwich. I had to laugh my ass off for... Well it's 14 years later and still worth a chuckle, I might have to locate my All Good Things tape today.. but I digress, when Data told picard that Q treated him like a pet, perhaps the equivalent of how a Human treats a small dog, everything that entity had done in the last 7 years fell into place as a massive didactic reverse psychology luge ride.

Following that metaphor: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0492492/
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