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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 18 2009, 11:04 PM   #31
JustKate
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
JustKate wrote: View Post
I enjoy it too - it could have been better, of course, but I mean, it's got Spock. How bad can it be?
Extremely bad.


Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
I remember how excited I was waiting for this and how disappointed I was when I saw it. Even Nimoy seemed to be having an off day.
Well, I must have been having shallow days the 2-3 times I've seen it because I've always enjoyed it. (I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, by the way - I mean, it's possible that I really did have a shallow day the times I've watched it.) Maybe I just shut down my critical faculties and enjoy the ride. It's not a favorite or anything, which is sort of a shame now that I think about it since it includes Spock, but I do enjoy it. I just let all those logical inconsistencies wash right over me...at least I have up until now.

Last edited by JustKate; April 18 2009 at 11:16 PM.
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Old April 18 2009, 11:31 PM   #32
Myasishchev
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

It has some awesome parts. They lost the ball only when they decided they needed some kind of cosmic jeopardy plot to ratchet up interest. There was never really any need. The possibility of harm to our heroes attempting to subvert the mean Romulan government was quite enough.
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Old April 19 2009, 12:42 AM   #33
Anwar
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

I did enjoy this story, though I was a tad disappointed with the Romulan government turning out really be some kind of military dictatorship calling itself a Senate and it being said that "The Romulans are envious of the freedoms we enjoy". I mean, wouldn't having it turn out that Romulus is a good free world where the civilians live good productive lives and they just happen to be antagonists to the Federation WITHOUT being so obviously bad be rather refreshing? I mean as it stands they never really delved deep enough into the Romulan culture anyways and they used the Military Dictatorship stuff for the Cardassians (to their benefit). Why not have the Romulans turn out NOT to also be a Military-Ruled Empire but a pleasant place that just happens to oppose the Feds?
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Old April 19 2009, 12:59 AM   #34
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

^That would raise this question: "If they're both democracies, why are they at odds with one another to the point of a cold war?"

Heck, it's hard enough to answer that question in Star Trek without the ideological conflict.
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Old April 19 2009, 02:48 AM   #35
Anwar
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

Same reason anyone has odds with anyone else really: Difference in life values. The Romulans can be a democracy that respects its' people without having the exact same values as the Feds, perhaps they see it as okay to go around settling on worlds with native populations and interfering with their development as long as they get a new world. Maybe they just feel they have a manifest destiny (which is pretty much canon...) and the Feds are an obstacle.

You can make up anything really, without making it so obviously a "Military Empires are inherently bad for everyone including themselves!" stuff.

Note, I am not advocating a military dictatorship as an ideal government. I'm just saying there's greater story potential for Trek in an antagonist who IS a democracy and not just another fascist Empire.
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Old April 19 2009, 03:10 AM   #36
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

^That's pretty much the way I see the Romulans, actually, Anwar - a rather repressive democracy with Communist Chinese trappings that sees a manifest destiny for taking what they please.
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Old April 19 2009, 03:28 AM   #37
Myasishchev
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Same reason anyone has odds with anyone else really: Difference in life values. The Romulans can be a democracy that respects its' people without having the exact same values as the Feds, perhaps they see it as okay to go around settling on worlds with native populations and interfering with their development as long as they get a new world. Maybe they just feel they have a manifest destiny (which is pretty much canon...) and the Feds are an obstacle.
Well, I can get on board with that. Like Praetor, I've always seen some quasi-democratic aspect to the Romulan Empire. Given the Senate, it appears to be an oligarchical or aristocratic form of government--so not free or particularly accountable, but also not centralized in a single person the way a dictatorship needs to be. Communist China (again as Prae said ) is a good analogue. So is, more obviously, Rome before Sulla. I wonder if there are any such things as tribunes in the Romulan Empire? (On a less serious note, why is the leader of the Senate called a praetor, anyway? The Roman praetors, while technically senators, were just a judge or junior army commander... is there a Romulan consul? Censor? Clearly, there is no imperator... if the praetor is a dictator he should just be called the Roman word for dictator... in the original Latin, dictator.)

For what it's worth, I think there was a period where they could have gone the way you suggest with the Ferengi, turning them into a rather fearsome (and topical) ideological enemy. We all know that didn't work out for a variety of reasons, and what we've learned of their government since has not helped anyone who'd like to see them as anything but a rather one-note, if entertaining, caricature.
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Old April 19 2009, 08:29 PM   #38
Anwar
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

The Opposing Democracy would work for the Romulans, the Cardassians would be the Military Dictatorship, the Klingons being the Space Samurais.

That leaves the Ferengi open as basically the MegaCorp enemies of Trek. Basically take something like Weyland Yutani and make them a Trek enemy/presence. They sell routes for shipping lanes, to anyone who has the money (including Pirates), they sell weapons to anyone who can afford them (thus meaning if both sides can afford, the Ferengi will keep wars going for centuries as it cuts them a profit and neither side may find out what's happening), when you make a move on them they respond by taking control of a major resource trading network you rely on so you HAVE to back off.

Basically, have their power come from everything EXCEPT military dominance.
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Old April 19 2009, 09:46 PM   #39
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

Anwar wrote: View Post
I prefer to think that after Sela's repeated failures someone just humored this one last nutty plan she had just to prove to the Senate that she should be drummed out of their service and the whole thing was engineered to fail.

Yes, this makes perfect sense to me. Her plans always seemed half-baked at best. I wonder if Picard's clone in NEM was also an aborted, hair-brained Sela scheme....
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Old April 19 2009, 10:13 PM   #40
Myasishchev
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Opposing Democracy would work for the Romulans, the Cardassians would be the Military Dictatorship, the Klingons being the Space Samurais.

That leaves the Ferengi open as basically the MegaCorp enemies of Trek. Basically take something like Weyland Yutani and make them a Trek enemy/presence. They sell routes for shipping lanes, to anyone who has the money (including Pirates), they sell weapons to anyone who can afford them (thus meaning if both sides can afford, the Ferengi will keep wars going for centuries as it cuts them a profit and neither side may find out what's happening), when you make a move on them they respond by taking control of a major resource trading network you rely on so you HAVE to back off.

Basically, have their power come from everything EXCEPT military dominance.
Presumably they'd still need a rather impressive military. Contractual enforcement requires force of law, which is ultimately force of arms--and the great mercantile marauders of the past (like the Ferengis' in-Farsi namesake) all significantly outgunned their less sophisticated opponents.

A germane question is if the Ferengi, at this point, actually could be rehabilitated into a non-laughable threat.

As for the Cardassians, they can't be the military dictatorship anymore, what with the complete destruction of their government. Of course in the novels we have a Romulan Empire effectively prostrated by civil war (isn't that more of a Klingon thing?), so they can't really be much of any kind of threat, ideological or otherwise.
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Old April 20 2009, 12:56 AM   #41
Anwar
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

Oh, I'm not talking about taking what they are now and making them the way I posted it. I'm talking about a total re conceptualization from day one.

As for the Ferengi, have them employ muscle along with their existing tech (their big ships are supposed to rival the Galaxy-class, afte rall but must be expensive and exclusive to the best commanders who make the most profit). They have their own ships and they're strong, but they're expensive and fewer in number so they use their economic prowess to hire lots and lots of muscle while making sure they stay in control of their "mercenary army" or at least employ them into their regualr army after a while.

Heh, this take would make the Ferengi the only other group with multiple species in their operations...
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Old April 20 2009, 06:57 AM   #42
Hober Mallow
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
I gave it about 30 seconds of thought while I was waiting for some red pepper soup (very easy to make and soooo tasty) to cool enough for me to eat me.
Any way you can PM me a recipe?
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Old April 20 2009, 12:39 PM   #43
JoeZhang
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
I gave it about 30 seconds of thought while I was waiting for some red pepper soup (very easy to make and soooo tasty) to cool enough for me to eat me.
Any way you can PM me a recipe?
Six red Peppers
an onion
Red chille pepper
some Garlic
Vegetable stock
Tomato puree
Lime

Make about a pint and a half of stock - leave it simmering on the oven.

In a big pan, add a little olive oil, fry the diced onion, chille and garlic for a couple of minutes.

Then add your diced red peppers and stir in some tomato puree (about a tablespoon or so).

Cover and leave on the pot for about five-ten minutes minutes.

Add half the stock.

Blend until it's as thin or as thick as you like (I like it quite thick).

Add the rest of the stock and the lime juice.
Stir and simmer for about five minutes -adding salt and pepper to taste. Pour into bowls and grate the lime peel over the top.

Enjoy!
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Old April 21 2009, 12:34 AM   #44
Hober Mallow
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Enjoy!
I will, thanks.
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Old April 21 2009, 07:41 PM   #45
Anji
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Re: Reunification - makes no sense?

It's all very cool what you guys are saying about military superiority and stuff like that but you have to remember the reality of making the series.

Roddenberry died prior to the filming of Reunification. My guess was nobody really wanted to write/shoot/act anything during this time.

Things were so bad Mark Leonard requested that Sarek be killed believing that Berman and his team would no longer be able to keep up the quality of the series.

Nimoy had tremendous difficulty working out a schedule when he could shoot the scenes required for the episode. He posted on a BBS years later (this BBS if I'm not correct) that once he was contacted by Berman to do the episode he could not get a hold of him or any of his people to say yes. He said in a period of a couple of weeks he made 5 consecutive calls with no one every returning call. Thinking he was not actually going to be in the episode he signed on to do another project. Then, wouldn't you know it, he gets a call from Berman saying everything was a go. Not wanting to pass up an opportunity to work on TNG, he had only one day open to shoot and that's what they did...shot all his scenes in one day.

From his postings, Nimoy seemed to express a sincere regret that his phone calls were not answered earlier and that he would have never committed to the other project, dedicating all his energies to Reunification.

If you ask me, the episode never had a chance.
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