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Old April 17 2009, 12:16 AM   #736
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Kes might have even made more sense, given her telepathy. However, they could have tied it to something B'Elanna felt guilt over. The dreadnought missile perhaps?
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Old April 17 2009, 12:29 AM   #737
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I liked "Remember" too, but I hated "False Prophets". I just can't stand the Ferengi, in any way, shape or form. To me, even "Threshold" is infinitely better than "FP".
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Old April 17 2009, 12:31 AM   #738
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I may have gone a little easy on Remember because I had a long day so I wasn't sure if it was the episode which was putting me to sleep or the four hours of driving. But I'm certainly not going to watch it again to make sure.

My main problem is that it didn't explore the issue of a falsified version of history because it got so caught up in the telepathic crap. This doesn't feel like an issue episode, it feels like a gimmick episode and the gimmick was stolen from an episode of TNG.

Like I said in my review, if you are going to explore an issue like a society covering up genocide then you need to base that on evidence and reasoned argument. Emotion is good when used right, but using it as the entire basis for judging an entire race of people is wrong. If the episode had pointed this out and B'Elanna had used her experience as a starting point to look for evidence of the genocide then it would have been okay, but instead the episode threw its support behind B'Elanna and her unsubstantiated claims. B'Elanna is right because the writers wanted her to be right, and that just isn't good enough for me.

One other problem I had with the ending is how coldly Janeway seemed to treat the aliens (I can't remember their names) after B'Elanna tells her what happened. Does this mean that I should act coldly to the Japanese because of what they did during WW2, even though most Japanese people weren't even alive back then? The Japanese fail to accept some of the atrocities they committed during the war, but I don't see everyone giving them the cold shoulder, nor should we.

As I also said, the episode doesn't show us what life was like for these Regressives, we are just led to believe that they weren't really a threat to society. I don't agree with the death penalty, but I could understand why some societies would use it if there was extremist groups trying to undermine society. The episode ignores this whole issue completely, we're just left to guess.

Besides, what's wrong with killing off all the conservatives so that society can move on and be more progressive? I've been advocating this policy for years.
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Old April 17 2009, 12:40 AM   #739
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
My main problem is that it didn't explore the issue of a falsified version of history because it got so caught up in the telepathic crap. This doesn't feel like an issue episode, it feels like a gimmick episode and the gimmick was stolen from an episode of TNG.
It definitely wouldn't pass the 'Gunsmoke' test...

GodBen wrote: View Post
Like I said in my review, if you are going to explore an issue like a society covering up genocide then you need to base that on evidence and reasoned argument. Emotion is good when used right, but using it as the entire basis for judging an entire race of people is wrong. If the episode had pointed this out and B'Elanna had used her experience as a starting point to look for evidence of the genocide then it would have been okay, but instead the episode threw its support behind B'Elanna and her unsubstantiated claims. B'Elanna is right because the writers wanted her to be right, and that just isn't good enough for me.
Very well said.
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Old April 17 2009, 07:49 AM   #740
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post

Lynx wrote: View Post
As for Jeri Taylor, is she criticizing those episodes because she didn't write them herself?
A valid question. There weren't even her much-maligned arcs present here. I've often wondered when the producers admit that something 'didn't work' if it isn't their tails-tucked way of just admitting that a chunk of the fans didn't like it?
Nah, she's just admitting it was a weak episode, which it undoubtedly was. The problem with these sorts of episodes is that they have to be interesting and entertaining in their own right, and have some meaning for our characters. When they work, like "The Inner Light", or I suppose "Far Beyond The Stars", they can be fantastic. I just don't think "Remember" succeeded on either front.

Incidentally, I just saw on Wiki that Jeri Taylor is the mother of Alexander Enberg, AKA: Ensign Vorik. I never knew that.
Which explains why that character got so much screen time and almost became a regular as long as Taylor was one of those in charge.

Praetor wrote:
Kes might have even made more sense, given her telepathy. However, they could have tied it to something B'Elanna felt guilt over. The dreadnought missile perhaps?
You're right about that! It would have made more sense if Kes had been the main character in this episode. I never thought of that before.
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Old April 17 2009, 04:03 PM   #741
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
False Profits (½)

Ferengi episodes; you either love them or hate them. Or you think they are okay. Or you just like them. Or you just dislike them. Or you like some and dislike others. Excuse me for a second, I seem to have tangented off onto some form of sine wave.

Anyway, I like some Ferengi episodes, I'm a particularly big fan of DS9's The Magnificent Ferengi. There are others that I hate, and this is one of those. The idea behind the episode is good, but when main characters start doing stupid things in order to service the plot then you know you have a problem, and the characters in this episode act so stupidly that I'm surprised they are able to do more than drool onto their shirts.

Other than Threshold, this is the worst episode of Voyager yet.
Agreed. I can't stand this episode. Before it aired, this was another episode that I was hoping to enjoy, what with the crossover from Next Generation's "The Price" and my love for many of (though not all of) the DS9 Ferengi themed episodes. What we got was almost unwatchable. I rewatched the first 4 seasons of Voyager a few years ago, and I had to shut this one off. Ugh.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Remember (*½)
I'd rate this one higher (***). I just think the message of the episode is so powerful (and important) that it trumps the negatives of the episode. And I love B'Elanna and Janeway here - and at this point in the series I was happy with any nice Janeway moments. All the Voyager crewmembers seem to be sane. It's not an amazing episode, but it's an important episode, and to me that makes it worthwhile. If they had strived to do more important episodes, even if they'd failed, the series would have been better off IMO, if that makes any sense. So many times they have a crap episode and I don't even get the point of it - or I do get the point, but it's a fairly stupid one. The more I think about this episode, the more it feels like a Season 1 effort, which from me, is a compliment.
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Old April 17 2009, 05:58 PM   #742
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yes, I hated "False Profits", but I remember enjoying "Remember"! =P
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Old April 17 2009, 09:57 PM   #743
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Sacred Ground (*½)

For an episode about learning to let go of science, there sure was a lot of technobabble going on here.

I am a skeptical atheist and I don't see any reason to believe in supernatural entities, but I'm not too bothered if a work of fiction goes beyond the realm of scientific understanding if it does so in an interesting way. I don't need a scientific explanation for most things in Star Trek, especially not when the scientific explanation is just a bunch of futuristic sounding words stuck together in a sentence which makes no sense.

The whole episode beats you over the head with the idea that science can't explain everything and that sometimes you just need to take a leap of faith, and I'm okay with that, it is something which I have felt for some time now. So my big problem with this episode is that Shmullus gives a scientific explanation at the end which apparently makes perfect sense. Why? That is like spending a day training a dog not to jump up on the furniture, and once he finally learned his lesson you pat your hand on the couch and tell him to jump up. It is a cop-out of an ending which suggests to me that the writer of the episode feared they couldn't pull off what the whole episode had been about.

My other big problem is that Janeway didn't come to her conclusion on her own, she needed it spelled out to her by Statler and Waldorf and Kia Winn's sister. For this story to work she needed to come to the conclusion on her own, having it explained to her damages the episode.

This also feels very much like a TNG episode, and even though it focuses on Janeway I don't think it explored her personality enough that this episode couldn't have been about Picard on the Enterprise. It is a tough call to make, it is right on the borderline, but I eventually decided to dock it half a star.


Note about the situation with Shmullus: I said after The Swarm that I would be docking marks if future episodes did not explain what happened to him. I have not taken away any marks for that yet because Some of you said that there would be a reference to that in Future's End, so I am waiting to see what happens in those episodes. If I don't find the follow-up to be satisfactory then I will dock half a star from Future's End.
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Old April 17 2009, 10:27 PM   #744
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Sacred Ground (*½)

For an episode about learning to let go of science, there sure was a lot of technobabble going on here.
Ditto. It's watchable - maybe a little more so than 'Remember' if only because it is more ambitious in what it's trying to do. It had a pretty clever premise, but like you so aptly described, fumbled the execution, especially at the end. The Doctor's explanation for why Janeway's leap of faith worked ultimately undermined the experience and made Janeway look stupid. (I'd have preferred she cut him off in mid-sentence at the end as he began explaining.) The episode could have had also more resonance had Janeway's letting go of science been related metaphoricaly to the theme of 'we're not in the Alpha Quadrant anymore and we have to adapt' - but it wasn't.

One thing I did enjoy particularly was that all Janeway actually had to do was sit down with the old folks. She put herself through all that crap because she refused to see what was directly in front of her. That, to me, is the strength of the episode - the message to not ignore what's right in front of you simply because of what you've been taught to expect or deal with. It's from that theme that this episode could have derived greater resonance.
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Old April 17 2009, 10:36 PM   #745
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Sacred Ground (*½)
This also feels very much like a TNG episode, and even though it focuses on Janeway I don't think it explored her personality enough that this episode couldn't have been about Picard on the Enterprise.
And, of course, they ignored that the ship supposedly has a mystic on board: Chakotay.

Instead of taking the side of spirituality, he's a nervous Nellie worried about Janeway going too far.

*sigh*

My poor, brave Indian, castrated by Jeri Taylor so that her Female Captain can look perfect.

Which ends up diminishing the Captain in the end.
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Old April 17 2009, 11:46 PM   #746
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Remember sucks.

Hello sir, I'm here to say that you are wrong. But first... let me congratulate you on your excellent thread. In fact it was because of you I became a regular reader of this place, since I was about to watch through the entire Voyager almost at the same time as you... with the difference that I'm a first-time watcher and slightly ahead of you... anyway I never intended to join as I always agreed with you with you anyway and I would have just been a waste of forum space... but you managed to irritate me enough with your complete disregard of Remember.

So sir, you are so wrong that you give all people who are wrong a bad name. You are wrong because Remember is one of the best Voyager episodes yet. Firstly, it gave the actor actual acting gig - Roxanne really became that girl - which I've noticed Voyager doesn't too very often. Secondly, the "Yes! Yes! Yes!" scene was beautiful poetic "shit bitch" moment. Thirdly - since quite a few countries in the world don't admit their parts in genocides, war crimes, participations in bad things (funding other governments who solve poverty by killing the poor for example) and prefer to portray themselves as "the good folk who are obviously blessed by God and righteousness" - or even if they admit, they still prefer to continue with righteousness attitude and just shrug it off as a necessity of progress or something else (all these things took place in this episode in some form or another) - it's the role of a socially responsible entertainer/artist to remind that this still exists and is still going on. Just about any book on historiography will give great examples of these things.

Also, Star Trek - being a socialist utopia of fairness and justice - could never say things like "in some cases though, genocide is great fun - like killing injuns for example, because who of us don't like them good old John Wayne movies" as you seem to be implying what you wanted to see in the episode. So obviously genocide is wrong in Trek-universe, because building rightousness and romantical images of idyll on the dead raped bodies of your innocent victims is called bullshit and a wrong one too.

And I didn't feel as Remember was preachy or anything. It just showed it. It was more of an illustration of all similar situations in earth history. That B'Elanna storms the party to say "Bullshit is what you say and bullshit is what you are!!!" didn't feel to me as we were supposed to rage with fury with B'Elanna. I mean, Janeway facepalmed... with just her eyes, but it were those "facepalm" eyes.

And another thing - to say that Janeway treating those aliens harshly after B'Elanna is like treating a young teenager jap wrong because of WWII because is the same is wrong, because that episode strongly indicated, that the old aliens were directly involved in those events. So it's more like treating coldly someone who participated in the Rape of Nanking and portraying himself as the embodiement of idyllic life and traditional family values, than treating coldly someone who is probably more versed in anime than you are.

Also, if I were you, I'd add 0.5 stars if the episode gives the actor actual acting to do - whether the script evolved the character or not. End of rant.

Sacred Grounds sucks, but it's better than Remember.

I agree with sucking, but to say that one of the most mediocre episodes of Voyager is better than one of the best Voyager episodes is illogical.

I loved the three old people, brilliant actors with that good calming presence. But other than that, Sacred Grounds is one of the typical New Age spiritualism episodes that the late 90's saw in many shows. I also like how Trek spent so much of it's time to destroy everything supernatural about the universe and then tries to bring the supernatural back by dabbling in cheap paperpack esotericism books spirituality.
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Old April 18 2009, 02:47 AM   #747
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Aye, "Sacred Ground" is an episode I never enjoyed...and "Remember" one that left a lasting impression...

However Jimmy Boy you might have gotten a little too personal in your criticizing of GodBen's position...
One must try to be civil in such discussions...
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Old April 18 2009, 04:40 AM   #748
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DISCLAIMER: It is 03:47 and I am rather drunk after having just arrived home. I am ignoring the advice I normally give while sober (that you should never post after drinking) in order to defend my honour, so please excuse any typos or sentences which don't make any purple banana sense monkey.

Jimmy Bob wrote: View Post
Hello sir, I'm here to say that you are wrong.
It wouldn't be the first time.

But first... let me congratulate you on your excellent thread.
Whooo!

In fact it was because of you I became a regular reader of this place...
Oh, I'm sorry. I'll try to make it up to you some day.

...but you managed to irritate me enough with your complete disregard of Remember.
It wasn't complete disregard, I gave it 3/10 and thought out two posts on why I found it lacking. If you want to see an episode which I completely disregarded then take a look at my review of Threshold.

So sir, you are so wrong that you give all people who are wrong a bad name.
Yeah, but I also give people called Ben a bad name. And I give Irish people a bad name. Actually, I give a bad name to anybody who can be associated with me. And tortoises, for some odd reason which I could never figure out.

You are wrong because Remember is one of the best Voyager episodes yet.
I disagree, but do go on.

Firstly, it gave the actor actual acting gig - Roxanne really became that girl - which I've noticed Voyager doesn't too very often.
Yes, she played the role very nicely, that earned the episode 1 star.

Secondly, the "Yes! Yes! Yes!" scene was beautiful poetic "shit bitch" moment.
I don't remember that scene, so obviously it didn't have an impact upon me.

Thirdly - since quite a few countries in the world don't admit their parts in genocides, war crimes, participations in bad things (funding other governments who solve poverty by killing the poor for example) and prefer to portray themselves as "the good folk who are obviously blessed by God and righteousness" - or even if they admit, they still prefer to continue with righteousness attitude and just shrug it off as a necessity of progress or something else (all these things took place in this episode in some form or another) - it's the role of a socially responsible entertainer/artist to remind that this still exists and is still going on. Just about any book on historiography will give great examples of these things.
And the idea to explore this issued earned the episode its second star. (Remember, half a star was deducted due to being a TNG-style episode.)

Also, Star Trek - being a socialist utopia of fairness and justice - could never say things like "in some cases though, genocide is great fun - like killing injuns for example, because who of us don't like them good old John Wayne movies" as you seem to be implying what you wanted to see in the episode.
Now I'm lost.

If you are referring to my joke about wanting to kill all conservative people then that was a joke, as evidenced by the fact that I was advocating killing millions of innocent people.

And I've never watched a single John Wayne film.

So obviously genocide is wrong in Trek-universe...
Genocide is wrong in most universes. Except maybe that universe with the Clangers, we could do without those bastards and their constant whistling.

...because building rightousness and romantical images of idyll on the dead raped bodies of your innocent victims is called bullshit and a wrong one too.
Lots of modern democracies saw vile acts during the struggle for their foundation, including my own. That doesn't make the acts right, but it doesn't invalidate the society which forms from them.

And I didn't feel as Remember was preachy or anything. It just showed it.
And that is the big problem with the episode; it just showed it. There was no evidence that these acts ever occurred, all we have to support this version of history is the telepathically transplanted memory of an old woman close to death. My grandmother has enough trouble remembering what she did last week, I certainly wouldn't expect her to remember events which happened when she was a teenager.

If the episode had used the memories as the jumping-off point to find evidence of the massacre then it would be fine, but instead the episode saw fit to judge a whole society based on little more than an emotional plea. That's not good enough.

It was more of an illustration of all similar situations in earth history. That B'Elanna storms the party to say "Bullshit is what you say and bullshit is what you are!!!" didn't feel to me as we were supposed to rage with fury with B'Elanna. I mean, Janeway facepalmed... with just her eyes, but it were those "facepalm" eyes.
Except in the scene in the ready-room Janeway clearly supports B'Elanna and it seems very much like as if Janeway has decided to end relations with the aliens as quickly as possible. That is how I read that scene.

And another thing - to say that Janeway treating those aliens harshly after B'Elanna is like treating a young teenager jap wrong because of WWII because is the same is wrong, because that episode strongly indicated, that the old aliens were directly involved in those events.
Once again, there is no evidence to back this up.

DS9's Duet is a fantastic episode which has been praised enough on this board. When Kira believes that the Cardassian they have locked up was involved in the massacre at Galitep she prematurely judges him and she wants him to die for his crimes. But that episode used the emotional reaction as the beginning of an investigation into the man's identity and he was eventually found to be innocent.

You should never judge somebody based on premature conclusions, and you certainly shouldn't judge them based purely on an emotional reaction.

Sacred Grounds sucks, but it's better than Remember.
I don't remember saying that, and I actually gave both episodes the same score; two stars, half a star deducted for being TNG-lite.


Okay, it is 04:33 now, time for some sleep, methinks. Thank you for reading and good night!
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Old April 18 2009, 04:43 AM   #749
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Whats with all the frickin analysing? Why don't you just rate it on the enjoyability factor?
Remember was a great episode! Who cares if we didn't get to see how those people lived? The old lady who transplanted the memory didn't see everything that was going on, obviously all we got to see was what she had experienced in her life. Its unrealistic to say we should have seen the entire story whenever the old lady never did.
It was just a really good episode.
I also enjoyed Sacred Ground. Season 3 is a very good season.
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Old April 18 2009, 05:38 AM   #750
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

This is a thread about analyzing Voyager - not analyzing it would be ignoring the basic premise of the thread.
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