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Old April 13 2009, 08:50 PM   #691
JustKate
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Perhaps this is the minority opinion, but I think those comments of Janeway's are...well, realistic. It's exactly the sort of thing a human of whatever era would think when looking at the practices of era not his or her own. When we judge another era, we tend to either idealize it or underrate it. So why wouldn't Janeway do the same thing?

If you'd ever heard an old-school Marine talk about the modern Marine Corps, for example, or a modern-day cop talking about old-school cops, you'd understand what I mean. So, sure, perhaps Janeway wasn't 100 percent fair in her assessment but she was 100 percent human. I'd rather have a character act human than act perfect. This was a very human moment for Janeway, so I like it for that very reason.
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Old April 13 2009, 08:57 PM   #692
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^-- I suppose you're right, but what might have made that scene better would have been for Janeway to come to understand the reasoning behind what Sulu and the Excelsior did - going to the ends of the universe in an attempt to help someone they cared about. Maybe it would even involve a bit of a lesson to Janeway, show her that she herself is developing a relationship with her crew much like that between the Kirk crew.

I agree that it is better for the characters to be human than being perfect, but it's one more of flaw in an episode that is full of them, which makes each flaw stand out that much more.
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Old April 13 2009, 10:18 PM   #693
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
I have a number of issues with this episode which I shall now list because I'm too lazy to form paragraphs around them.

1) Tuvok was not in The Undiscovered Country. He just wasn't.
2) Sulu did not send the Excelsior across the border to rescue Kirk in The Undiscovered Country. He just didn't.
3) I've seen the opening scene of TUC two dozen times, I can nit-pick the re-shoot of the scene to death.
These three actually didn't bother me.
Well these three are just personal opinion because I love TUC so much. They probably wouldn't bother most people.

1) I could accept Tuvok being on the Excelsior if the episode was good, I can forgive all sorts of continuity issues if I enjoy what I'm watching, hence why I don't mind the Xindi arc on Enterprise. But this episode was bad, so I find it hard to forgive this retcon.

2) If Sulu had crossed the border in TUC and attacked Klingon ships then it would have had a huge impact on the story of that film. The peace talks with the Klingons would have completely broken down, Sulu would have been relived of command for breaking an order from the UFP President, and Sulu certainly wouldn't have been privy to the classified location of the Khitomer conference. The story of this episode just does not fit in with the story of the movie, just like TATV doesn't fit in with The Pegasus.

3) This is purely an aesthetic thing, but I'm so used to the opening scene of TUC that seeing it re-shot just didn't work for me. It was shot better in the movie, but as I said, that is personal opinion.
The more I think about 2, the more I agree with you. But I do of course understand where you're coming from. TUC is such a great movie that it does feel wrong to do an inferior story that seems to detract from it.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Chute (***)

I said it in my review of Faces and I'll say it again here; prison stories tend to be boring because we always know that the characters will escape in the end, so you need interesting scenes in the prison to make it worthwhile. Well this episode was reasonable in that regard, and this is probably the best episode to focus on Harry so far.

Some good character stuff in a fairly routine story. Not the best, but not bad.
Agreed... this week, the universe hated Harry, but at least let him entertain us.

JustKate wrote: View Post
^ Perhaps this is the minority opinion, but I think those comments of Janeway's are...well, realistic. It's exactly the sort of thing a human of whatever era would think when looking at the practices of era not his or her own. When we judge another era, we tend to either idealize it or underrate it. So why wouldn't Janeway do the same thing?

If you'd ever heard an old-school Marine talk about the modern Marine Corps, for example, or a modern-day cop talking about old-school cops, you'd understand what I mean. So, sure, perhaps Janeway wasn't 100 percent fair in her assessment but she was 100 percent human. I'd rather have a character act human than act perfect. This was a very human moment for Janeway, so I like it for that very reason.
I agree with this assessment of what she said. It was actually somewhat refreshing.

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
^-- I suppose you're right, but what might have made that scene better would have been for Janeway to come to understand the reasoning behind what Sulu and the Excelsior did - going to the ends of the universe in an attempt to help someone they cared about. Maybe it would even involve a bit of a lesson to Janeway, show her that she herself is developing a relationship with her crew much like that between the Kirk crew.
Now THAT would have made not only Janeway's talk about the TOS period but also the episode overall just a tiny bit better - Janeway actually learns something.
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Old April 13 2009, 10:32 PM   #694
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
Now THAT would have made not only Janeway's talk about the TOS period but also the episode overall just a tiny bit better - Janeway actually learns something.
Janeway learn something? But didn't you realise that she already knows everything there is to know?
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Old April 13 2009, 10:33 PM   #695
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

MIIIIINE!
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Old April 13 2009, 11:35 PM   #696
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Chute (***)

I said it in my review of Faces and I'll say it again here; prison stories tend to be boring because we always know that the characters will escape in the end, so you need interesting scenes in the prison to make it worthwhile. Well this episode was reasonable in that regard, and this is probably the best episode to focus on Harry so far.

The idea that they have devices designed to agitate the prisoners isn't exactly compelling, but it does help Harry break out from the annoying NG Trek depiction of perfect humans. Seeing Harry get visibly angry and beating his best friend is good, as Quark once said about hew-mons:
Quark wrote:
But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon.
My main problem with this episode is that I just don't enjoy prison dramas all that much. I never liked Oz or Prison Break, and seeing these shows set in space doesn't make me like them any more. It's just a personal preference thing.

Also, at the end Neelix makes a comment about his brilliant piloting skills which happened... off-screen. That's just what I wanted, comments about a brilliant chase sequence I'll never get to see, rub it in why don't you?

Some good character stuff in a fairly routine story. Not the best, but not bad.
The problem is that the device makes the episode pointless..

It wasn't Kim lashing out..it was the device!
The writers were just having their cake and eating it too...
Having a character do "flawed 20th Century Human" things but still be a "perfect 24th Century Human"...

I wasn't convinced!
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Old April 13 2009, 11:53 PM   #697
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^The objection to the device is a valid point.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Now THAT would have made not only Janeway's talk about the TOS period but also the episode overall just a tiny bit better - Janeway actually learns something.
Janeway learn something? But didn't you realise that she already knows everything there is to know?
Silly me.
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Old April 14 2009, 12:29 AM   #698
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetorian wrote: View Post
The problem is that the device makes the episode pointless..

It wasn't Kim lashing out..it was the device!
The writers were just having their cake and eating it too...
Having a character do "flawed 20th Century Human" things but still be a "perfect 24th Century Human"...

I wasn't convinced!
It depends on how you view it, I don't see it as the device controlling them, it merely put them under emotional strain so that they would act on their more aggressive instincts. It is similar to how you will lash out at people when you are having a bad day, the increased emotional strain that you are under may have facilitated your aggressive impulse, but it was still you that acted upon that impulse.

I understand what you are saying, but Roddenberry put the writers in a box and if they need to create some way in order to escape it then I'm okay with that.
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Old April 14 2009, 02:37 AM   #699
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
But my nit to pick here would be that Janeway says of the TOS era crews that 'the whole lot of them' would be thrown out of Starfleet in the 24th century. And... excuse me? I don't think they were THAT far different from modern Starfleet. Yes, they weren't in constant communication with Starfleet, but that doesn't mean that they broke every rule. They may have bent them and walked the fine line, but they wouldn't be Starfleet officers if they didn't follow the rules. I just find that line completely insulting to the Starfleet officers that Janeway's talking about, and there's a part of me that would love to point this conversation out to the Janeway of various later episodes.
I know this scene caused a lot of controversey at the time but it was actually meant to be a compliment from Janeway to the TOS crew. Sure, they didn't do things the same way as "modern" Starfleet but the way Janeway says "I would still love to ride shotgun with them" says that she understands and approves of their methods and would have done the same in their position.

As she later proved...
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Old April 14 2009, 03:37 AM   #700
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I agree with GodBen. Flashback (*). That whole premise of a virus masquerading as a memory... completely ridiculous.

On the one end, I appreciated the flashback to the Excelsior with Sulu in command, but if only it could have been done in a much more plausible way.
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Old April 14 2009, 08:18 PM   #701
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Swarm (**)

TUVOK: Would it affect your decision if I pointed out that encroaching on the territory of an alien species is prohibited by starfleet regulations?
JANEWAY: No, it wouldn't.
TUVOK: Captain, you have managed to surprise me.
JANEWAY: We're a long way from starfleet, Lieutenant.
Finally! It has been a long time coming but at long last she comes around to my way of looking at things. But will it last? Every time from now on when Janeway falls back on pointless regulations I can point my finger at this episode as evidence of character regression.

There's two stories in this episode and both get equal air-time, at least it seems that way. The story revolving around the swarm is fairly rubbish and I have numerous problems with it. My main problem is with how blatant this episode is about being an alien of the week story; going around the swarm's territory would take 15 months, but there is a nearby region where they can get through it in 4 days. How convenient. The solution of the week is technobabble, so that doesn't help.

The story with Shmullus is better and it is nice to see two Picardos on screen, but the problem is very sudden and it doesn't get much of a chance to grow. I don't know much about 24th century holograms, but file degradation tends take a long time. There is a great parallel here to Alzheimer's disease and I would have loved to have seen this play out over multiple episodes, but here the solution is found by episode's end. The episode also ends on an ambiguous note by suggesting that Shmullus may have lost most of his memories, but I don't remember this being an issue in later episodes. This is a serious issue, if it is not addressed in the next few episodes then points will have to be deducted.

If you want to have an ending like this then you must follow it up, if you want to do episodic television then you must never end an episode like this.

1 star for the story about the swarm, 3 stars for the story about Shmullus, add them up and divide by 2.
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Old April 14 2009, 08:28 PM   #702
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"The Swarm".

Here we have the gemstone of season 3. An excellent episode. The way the crew handles the Swarm is exciting but the best part is the problems from which The Doctor is suffering. Good story with some good inter-action between the main characters. Finally Kes comes up with a brilliant solution how to save The Doctor.

I have to agree with GodBen that there are some flaws in both stories but never mind, I just like this episode and give it 5 points out of 5.
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Old April 14 2009, 09:43 PM   #703
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

kimc wrote: View Post
I know this scene caused a lot of controversey at the time but it was actually meant to be a compliment from Janeway to the TOS crew. Sure, they didn't do things the same way as "modern" Starfleet but the way Janeway says "I would still love to ride shotgun with them" says that she understands and approves of their methods and would have done the same in their position.

As she later proved...
That's a really good point. Saying "We wouldn't do it that way these days" isn't at all the same thing as saying "I disapprove." She might even be...slightly envious? Could be!

Last edited by JustKate; April 14 2009 at 10:12 PM.
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Old April 14 2009, 10:09 PM   #704
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

JustKate wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post
I know this scene caused a lot of controversey at the time but it was actually meant to be a compliment from Janeway to the TOS crew. Sure, they didn't do things the same way as "modern" Starfleet but the way Janeway says "I would still love to ride shotgun with them" says that she understands and approves of their methods and would have done the same in their position.

As she later proved...
That's a really good point. Saying "We wouldn't do it that way these days" isn't at all the same things as saying "I disapprove." She might even be...slightly envious? Could be!
I think you've got it.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Swarm (**)

TUVOK: Would it affect your decision if I pointed out that encroaching on the territory of an alien species is prohibited by starfleet regulations?
JANEWAY: No, it wouldn't.
TUVOK: Captain, you have managed to surprise me.
JANEWAY: We're a long way from starfleet, Lieutenant.
Finally! It has been a long time coming but at long last she comes around to my way of looking at things. But will it last? Every time from now on when Janeway falls back on pointless regulations I can point my finger at this episode as evidence of character regression.

There's two stories in this episode and both get equal air-time, at least it seems that way. The story revolving around the swarm is fairly rubbish and I have numerous problems with it. My main problem is with how blatant this episode is about being an alien of the week story; going around the swarm's territory would take 15 months, but there is a nearby region where they can get through it in 4 days. How convenient. The solution of the week is technobabble, so that doesn't help.

1 star for the story about the swarm, 3 stars for the story about Shmullus, add them up and divide by 2.
I never particularly enjoyed the actual Swarm part of this plot. The Shmullus story, I liked, but not the Swarm part. It was boring, distracted, and confusing. It really needed focus, and could have been the 'we're not in Kansas anymore' episode of the series. But it wasn't. Your rating is quite fair.

And, in regard to 'regression,' every time Kathy seems to say to hell with the regulations, you can point back to this episode as the starting point.
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Old April 14 2009, 10:20 PM   #705
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I enjoyed that Doctor part of the Episode, it showcased how the Doctor had grown beyond its programming, becomming closer to being a real person but the ending fails because other than a throwaway line from Future's End it's as if it never happened.
I agree with GodBen, why bother doing endings like this if you know, and Voy Writers knew, that you aren't going to follow up on them?
The Alien part wasn't bad, including Janeway's decision to disregard Starfleet Rules... However later she will be very adamant about following the rules so what gives?

However the worse of it is how the swarm problem is solved with treknobable!
"Oh noes the swarm is comming!" "Don't worry, remodulate the shield frenquency and reverse the polarity of the deflector!"

Hum..no...

Still, the Doc side of the episode was quite interesting, and the Swarm seemed somewhat of a threat at first so it's a enjoyable episode!
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