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Old April 9 2009, 03:02 PM   #76
JustKate
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

There is, IMO, absolutely no hint throughout the time that Kes is on Voyager that she and Neelix have gone much beyond hand-holding. Sorry, Kimc, but I just don't see it. Sure, it's possible, but if so, it's one of those things that the writers chose not to show us or even hint to us.
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Old April 9 2009, 03:07 PM   #77
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

Well, for what it's worth, I always assumed they had sex, too. I mean, they were presented as a couple. It's just that I never thought they did not have sex. I don't expect a TV show to actually show me two people having sex to assume they're doing it.

Come to think of it, maybe the writers avoided the issue on purpose. Seems like they wanted to keep it vague.
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Old April 9 2009, 03:16 PM   #78
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

But NCC, if they'd wanted us to think they'd had sex, don't you think they would have shown something? I mean, you sure the heck could tell, with at least some certainty, when Kirk had had sex, and that was 1960s television. If they could do it in 1967, why not with Voyager?

People do have romances without sex, you know, at least at first. To me, the Kes/Neelix thing always came across as chaste young love, at least as far as Kes was concerned.

But then again, as I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, that relationship never felt right to me. There was something just disturbing about it that I cannot quite describe - others who seem to have had the same reaction have described it as pedophilia, but for me, that isn't quite the right word. Anyway, I was always very glad they didn't confront us with anything that led me to believe Neelix was having sex with this incredibly young and inexperienced girl because my reaction would have been an emphatic "Eeeeeeeeeuuuuuuuwwwwww!" So perhaps I missed something because I wanted to miss it. I don't think so - because of all that auto-reponse euw-ing - but it's possible.
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Old April 9 2009, 03:23 PM   #79
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

JustKate wrote: View Post
But NCC, if they'd wanted us to think they'd had sex, don't you think they would have shown something? I mean, you sure the heck could tell, with at least some certainty, when Kirk had had sex, and that was 1960s television. If they could do it in 1967, why not with Voyager?

People do have romances without sex, you know, at least at first. To me, the Kes/Neelix thing always came across as chaste young love, at least as far as Kes was concerned.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I really don't. And I know that people can have relationships without sex. (Actually I even know people who do.) It's just that I never ever doubted Kes and Neelix had sex. I mean, it's not like I thought about it that much. I just assumed they had a romantic relationship which involved sex. I agree, it could have been implied more strongly by the writers. But I guess there just never was a story that demanded to actually allude to their sexual life.

However, I can see now how people never thought they had sex. That's what this board is great for; getting new perspectives on things.
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Old April 9 2009, 03:26 PM   #80
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

Learning is good, and I'd like to learn too, so on that note, where do you see that the writers implied it at all? You say they could have implied it "more strongly," but I didn't see them even hint at the merest wisp of a possibility. But again, that could because of the eeeeeeeuuuuuuwwww-factor....

Last edited by JustKate; April 9 2009 at 03:31 PM. Reason: Because unnecessary word repetition is bad.
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Old April 9 2009, 03:31 PM   #81
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

JustKate wrote: View Post
Learning is good, and I'd like to learn too, so on that note, where do you see the writers implied it at all? You say they could have implied it "more strongly," but I didn't see them even hint at the merest hint of a possibility. But again, that could because of the eeeeeeeuuuuuuwwww-factor....
I guess just the fact that they were introduced as a couple implied to me that they're having sex. They didn't have to show more to let me think otherwise. Usually when they present a couple on TV it's assumed that they're getting intimate. I actually think it's the other way around: They never implied that Kes and Neelix did not have sex. I would expect for a TV show to do that if they wanted to convey a relationship were sex is not an issue.
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Old April 9 2009, 03:33 PM   #82
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

^ See, I kind of thought they did, with Neelix talking in the early episodes about how "Kes is very young" and all that. Maybe the writers had an eeeeeuuuuuuwwww! reaction, too? Kidding! Well, sort of.
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Old April 9 2009, 03:38 PM   #83
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

^ Well, then I guess I just remember it differently. I can't think of moments where he says that. One must also take into account that Voyager is maybe the Trek series I have watched the least since it's initial broadcast on TV. It's the only series I don't own on DVD. It's actually possible that it's close to ten years ago since I last saw the first season of Voyager. Man, I was so young back then. Maybe I would look at things from a completely new perspective if I'd watch it now.
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Old April 9 2009, 03:45 PM   #84
exodus
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
JustKate wrote: View Post
But NCC, if they'd wanted us to think they'd had sex, don't you think they would have shown something? I mean, you sure the heck could tell, with at least some certainty, when Kirk had had sex, and that was 1960s television. If they could do it in 1967, why not with Voyager?

People do have romances without sex, you know, at least at first. To me, the Kes/Neelix thing always came across as chaste young love, at least as far as Kes was concerned.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I really don't. And I know that people can have relationships without sex. (Actually I even know people who do.) It's just that I never ever doubted Kes and Neelix had sex. I mean, it's not like I thought about it that much. I just assumed they had a romantic relationship which involved sex. I agree, it could have been implied more strongly by the writers. But I guess there just never was a story that demanded to actually allude to their sexual life.

However, I can see now how people never thought they had sex. That's what this board is great for; getting new perspectives on things.
In modern times, a couple would imply a sexual relastionship. During our Grandparents age, it didn't. A couple were just people that held hands & kissed. Sex before marriage was considered TABOO!!

Who's to say Neelix & Kes didn't share an old fashioned relationship?
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Old April 9 2009, 04:41 PM   #85
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

I also always assumed that Neelix and Kes were having sex since they were in a relationship, which was just another thing about that relationship that freaked me out...
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Old April 9 2009, 04:49 PM   #86
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

^ What gave you that idea either than the fact that they were "in a relationship"? There's lots of kinds of relationships, as you know. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that I cannot remember any evidence of it besides the "in a relationship" thing. Can you?

In the meantime, I can rest easy, knowing that even if there was a sexual relationship, I don't have to acknowledge it since it didn't happen on camera and wasn't even implied on camera, as far as I can recall. So even if I'm wrong, I can pretend I'm right and can thus avoid too much euw-ing. Hooray!
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Old April 9 2009, 05:19 PM   #87
exodus
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

Plus, after knowing Kes was pre-pubesent. I don't see any Trek writer or producer condoning under-age sex or rape. So I'd like to assume do to that they weren't getting their swirve on.

However, once again I think it's a flaw with not thinking out the character Kes properly. You never knew how to veiw what age she was compared to that of humans. One minute they're calling her a "little girl" the next they have her making adult choices.
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Old April 9 2009, 06:26 PM   #88
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

^ That's how I feel, too. But then again, we have to take into account my "eeeeeeeuuuuuwwww!" factor.

You make a good point, Exodus, about the inconsistency in her characterization. Jennifer Lein herself never really came across as a little girl, but some of the writing sort of leaned that way.
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Old April 9 2009, 07:00 PM   #89
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

JustKate wrote: View Post
^ What gave you that idea either than the fact that they were "in a relationship"? There's lots of kinds of relationships, as you know. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that I cannot remember any evidence of it besides the "in a relationship" thing. Can you?
Well, no. I just felt that it was implied that they were in a romantic relationship (particularly in 'Caretaker' and a few other season one instances) and that by extension that it was probably a sexual one. (And then came 'Elogium.' )

In the meantime, I can rest easy, knowing that even if there was a sexual relationship, I don't have to acknowledge it since it didn't happen on camera and wasn't even implied on camera, as far as I can recall. So even if I'm wrong, I can pretend I'm right and can thus avoid too much euw-ing. Hooray!
Oh I agree totally.
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Old April 9 2009, 07:13 PM   #90
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Re: Most Obnoxious: Neelix or Phlox?

^ I knew I wouldn't get any argument from you on that.
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