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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 3 2009, 04:31 PM   #16
K-Star
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Re: Measure of a Man

I love this episode. I hate Maddox cuz he's such an evil bastard towards Data. It's great to see him pretty much get pwned in the courtroom
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Old April 3 2009, 04:51 PM   #17
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Re: Measure of a Man

I think people who object to the argument, often posited in ST, that androids or holograms are sentient are missing the point.

For the record, I think as we explore sentience, we will indeed have a more expansive view of what that means in the future. So I can believe that an android, given the right circumstances, could indeed be a sentient being.

Now, the thing is androids and holograms are stand-ins for whatever minority is threatened in our society. That's because there are too many people who think gays don't deserve certain rights. Or still believe members of certain ethnic groups aren't "the same" as everyone else, and therefore, not deserving of the same rights under the law.

The ep is an allegory on racial discrimination. It really isn't meant to be interpreted literally. And it is one of my fave Data eps.

I wonder if Maddox was ever successful in recreating an android with a positronic brain. And I wonder if he did, if he'd design one that looked like him, the way Dr. Soong did. Probably someone's already written a novel based on that possibility.

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Old April 3 2009, 04:53 PM   #18
K-Star
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Re: Measure of a Man

Red Ranger wrote: View Post
I think people who object to the argument, often posited in ST, that androids or holograms are sentient are missing the point.

For the record, I think as we explore sentience, we will indeed have a more expansive view of what that means in the future. So I can believe that an android, given the right circumstances, could indeed be a sentient being.

Now, the thing is androids and holograms are stand-ins for whatever minority is threatened in our society. That's because there are too many people who think gays don't deserve certain rights. Or still believe members of certain ethnic groups aren't "the same" as everyone else, and therefore, not deserving of the same rights under the law.

The ep is an allegory on racial discrimination. It really isn't meant to be interpreted literally. And it is one of my fave Data eps.

I wonder if Maddox was ever successful in recreating an android with a positronic brain. And I wonder if he did, if he'd design one that looked like him, the way Dr. Soong did. Probably someone's already written a novel based on that possibility.

Red Ranger
Read Immortal Coil. And no, the android did not look like Maddox.
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Old April 3 2009, 04:59 PM   #19
Red Ranger
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Re: Measure of a Man

K-Star wrote: View Post
Red Ranger wrote: View Post
I think people who object to the argument, often posited in ST, that androids or holograms are sentient are missing the point.

For the record, I think as we explore sentience, we will indeed have a more expansive view of what that means in the future. So I can believe that an android, given the right circumstances, could indeed be a sentient being.

Now, the thing is androids and holograms are stand-ins for whatever minority is threatened in our society. That's because there are too many people who think gays don't deserve certain rights. Or still believe members of certain ethnic groups aren't "the same" as everyone else, and therefore, not deserving of the same rights under the law.

The ep is an allegory on racial discrimination. It really isn't meant to be interpreted literally. And it is one of my fave Data eps.

I wonder if Maddox was ever successful in recreating an android with a positronic brain. And I wonder if he did, if he'd design one that looked like him, the way Dr. Soong did. Probably someone's already written a novel based on that possibility.

Red Ranger
Read Immortal Coil. And no, the android did not look like Maddox.
Thanks, K-Star. I'll check it out. -- RR
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Old April 3 2009, 06:14 PM   #20
Nerdius Maximus
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Re: Measure of a Man

It's one of my favorite episodes. I always preferred the shows that weren't action-oriented, because that wasn't what Star Trek was about to me. Sure, a little sprinkled in here and there is cool, but to me, that's where they went wrong with TNG movies. Too much action, not enough depth. And they didn't even bother to build up to the action, they just jumped right in.
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Old April 5 2009, 01:31 AM   #21
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Re: Measure of a Man

It's in my Top Ten list of "All Time Greatest Trek Episodes" as well...top 5 even...MofaM encapsulates the ideals that Trek represents...it's core ethics and values...

And Trek is NOT just about epic space wars - it's about exploring the human condition...it's about deep philosophical and moral concepts...it's an intellectual tv show, not just "Wagon Train to the Stars"...

I think later Trek creators have, sadly, forgotten that.
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Old April 5 2009, 03:07 AM   #22
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Re: Measure of a Man

Red Ranger wrote: View Post
I think people who object to the argument, often posited in ST, that androids or holograms are sentient are missing the point.

For the record, I think as we explore sentience, we will indeed have a more expansive view of what that means in the future. So I can believe that an android, given the right circumstances, could indeed be a sentient being.

Now, the thing is androids and holograms are stand-ins for whatever minority is threatened in our society. That's because there are too many people who think gays don't deserve certain rights. Or still believe members of certain ethnic groups aren't "the same" as everyone else, and therefore, not deserving of the same rights under the law.

The ep is an allegory on racial discrimination. It really isn't meant to be interpreted literally. And it is one of my fave Data eps.

Red Ranger
Its one of T.N.G.'s 10 best
People tend to forget that its an allegory on racist views.
What first jumped out at me is an allegory on slavery, but I see the larger racial discrimination aspect now that you pointed it out Red Ranger.
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Old April 5 2009, 03:05 PM   #23
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Re: Measure of a Man

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Great episode. I actually think these talky episodes, in which Picard prevails with a rousing speech on a moral or intellectual point, are usually TNG's most effective.

Stewart can do these in his sleep, and it's great to give him something meaty as opposed to the more sci-fi/action oriented episodes...
He does a great bit of acting when he starts his summation - he fumbles and mumbles and isn't convincing at all, and leads the scene into this emotional place where it feels like Picard is losing, like he can't pull this together after Riker's big finish. And then he warms up... and ends with the Eye of the Tiger and "There it sits!" Stewart is awesome.
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Old April 5 2009, 07:54 PM   #24
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Re: Measure of a Man

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
Stewart can do these in his sleep
Which suddenly turned him into a "great actor." The funny thing is, when ever he had to actually act, he sucked.
I don't agree with that. He was a fine actor before Hollywood had even heard of him. Got any examples, because I honestly can't see where you're coming from.
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Old April 7 2009, 03:41 PM   #25
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Re: Measure of a Man

Forbin wrote: View Post
I think one of the purposes of true "science fiction" is to examine the human condition from an outside perspective, and to discuss what it means to be human. This episode has that in spades. I put it in the top ten Trek episodes of all time.

I still get chills when Picard says, "Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well there it sits. Waiting."
Totally agree, this is one of my favourite epidsodes because it's about so much more than just space battles and aliens (which are good too, but not as meaningful)
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Old April 8 2009, 04:14 AM   #26
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Re: Measure of a Man

It was put in the top ten greatest star trek episides list I just saw, it may have even been in the top 5. I would like to point out that this is a season 2 episode. Now I haven't seen every episode, but it seems that a lot of people don't care for season 2, and it doesn't make sense because this episode along with a few others is so epic that it is one of the best in the series.
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Old April 8 2009, 09:48 PM   #27
Seven of Five
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Re: Measure of a Man

'Measure of a Man' is a brilliant episode; definately in my TNG Top 10. As people are already saying, Picard's speeches in favour of Data were riviting, and of course poor 'toaster' Data is just a stand in for slavery, or racism. The court room setting may now seem a little obvious, but it was still excellent.

I also love 'The Offspring.' It wasn't a classic like 'Measure' was, but the reocurring theme of android sentience really had more of an emotional kick. Lal malfunctioning made me cry, especially if the episode is watched after 'Measure.'
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Old April 8 2009, 10:14 PM   #28
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Re: Measure of a Man

Tomalak wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Tomalak wrote: View Post
Stewart can do these in his sleep
Which suddenly turned him into a "great actor." The funny thing is, when ever he had to actually act, he sucked.
I don't agree with that. He was a fine actor before Hollywood had even heard of him. Got any examples, because I honestly can't see where you're coming from.
I'm not sure why Clegg feels that Stewart sucked. He was a stage actor way before he appeared on film, so I'd assume you'd need good acting chops for that. The only shows prior to TNG that I remember Stewart from were the movies Dune and Excalibur. They weren't big parts as I recall, but Stewart did fine and was his usual classy self.
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Old October 14 2013, 11:16 PM   #29
Yanks
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Re: Measure of a Man

All gushing aside, and not dinging anyones performance, but this episode is highly overrated.

Good drama and great acting does not an epic episode make.
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Old October 14 2013, 11:21 PM   #30
Savage Dragon
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Re: Measure of a Man

Holy zombie thread Batman!

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