Terminator 2-20 "To the Lighthouse" - Discuss/Grade <SPO>

[nx1701g]

Ryan8bit wrote:

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How is it masterful? Weaver looks worried and says it was a mistake to JH. You'd think she might be thrilled if hunting Skynet was her objective, but she looked upset. Even if hunting Skynet was her objective, then what's stopping her? She's from the future, so she should know a thing or two about how Skynet develops, and if it's really a threat to her, she should be out there squashing it.

She doesn't necessarily know anything about Skynet's development. In the Pilot Cameron only knew the date of Judgment Day, she knew nothing else in relation to who developed Skynet.

Not to mention why did she set up that automation of Seranno Point in "Automatic For the People", something which could clearly help Skynet a lot? If Weaver was looking to build a rival to Skynet, doing things that help both herself and Skynet seems foolish. If somehow it did make sense, then the development of aerial HKs at heat and air would probably benefit her as well. Her whole plan seems silly right now.

Maybe there truly is a faction that wants peace or maybe she is, in some ways, helping the Resistance... We do know that Seranno Point is in Resistance hands in 2027.

[nx1701g]

LutherSloan wrote:

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It appears so. Remember that the henchmen were controlling that town with all of the cameras earlier this season, and the man who shot Sarah killed some of the people who lived there that had heard/learned too much.

And they did say that the town was set up like a Skynet Concentration Camp...

[Ryan8bit]

ThunderAeroI wrote:

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Unless her plane is to build the backup system to SkyNet so when Skynet does fall to human hands their is that backup avilable.

Unlikely, otherwise her program wouldn't be getting hacked by Skynet.

[Ryan8bit]

nx1701g wrote:

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She doesn't necessarily know anything about Skynet's development. In the Pilot Cameron only knew the date of Judgment Day, she knew nothing else in relation to who developed Skynet.

Don't you find that odd considering Uncle Bob's scenario? He had detailed files all about Dyson.

I realize it was done this way on the show to keep things a mystery, but for Cameron and Weaver to know so little of their own history that they're trying to change seems strange. And Weaver is apparently aware enough of Skynet's development that she knows Andy Goode and the Turk were at one point pivotal to it.

Maybe there truly is a faction that wants peace or maybe she is, in some ways, helping the Resistance... We do know that Seranno Point is in Resistance hands in 2027.

But it doesn't make sense to make it automated by AI then because it would be that much harder for the resistance to utilize. And it's been speculated that Weaver was the liquid metal on the Jimmy Carter, so she has shown she doesn't want to join the resistance. That it had any desires independent from Skynet is really strange anyways. Being some independent faction doesn't really make sense in so many ways.

[nx1701g]

[quote=Ryan8bit;2775700]

nx1701g wrote:

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Don't you find that odd considering Uncle Bob's scenario? He had detailed files all about Dyson.

You answered your own question if you think about it. Skynet may have realized that the Connors had access to outside help in learning about Skynet's origins at the hands of Dyson. It may have restricted the data or not included it in the information installed in the terminators.

I realize it was done this way on the show to keep things a mystery, but for Cameron and Weaver to know so little of their own history that they're trying to change seems strange. And Weaver is apparently aware enough of Skynet's development that she knows Andy Goode and the Turk were at one point pivotal to it.

Maybe the faction somehow hacked Skynet's database and learned about - at very least - The Turk.

But it doesn't make sense to make it automated by AI then because it would be that much harder for the resistance to utilize. And it's been speculated that Weaver was the liquid metal on the Jimmy Carter, so she has shown she doesn't want to join the resistance. That it had any desires independent from Skynet is really strange anyways. Being some independent faction doesn't really make sense in so many ways.

It's been established since T2 the Ultimate Edition as a possibility for the machines to rebel against Skynet. The dialogue pretty much confirms this while the T-800 explains he is sent out on read only instead of read and write because Skynet doesn't want them doing too much thinking. They may have developed a more peaceful stance toward the humans thinking of them as not a threat.

As for the AI - what is stopping the other faction from taking it in the end. At the moment there are still more questions than answers.

[Wouter2]

Ryan8bit wrote:

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How is it masterful? Weaver looks worried and says it was a mistake to JH. You'd think she might be thrilled if hunting Skynet was her objective, but she looked upset. Even if hunting Skynet was her objective, then what's stopping her? She's from the future, so she should know a thing or two about how Skynet develops, and if it's really a threat to her, she should be out there squashing it.

And Weaver did go out there to squash it, didn't she? As for being worried, that was because she has just discovered a serious competitor in her own line of business (both regarding developping super AIs and collecting Coltan). I always thought this made way more sense than Weaver killing all of her own employees because someone made a mistake - I could understand killing those few directly responsible, but the whole plant? She was eliminating the competition.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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Not to mention why did she set up that automation of Seranno Point in "Automatic For the People", something which could clearly help Skynet a lot? If Weaver was looking to build a rival to Skynet, doing things that help both herself and Skynet seems foolish.

It does not help Skynet - Serrano point isn't "automated" in a vacuum, she is the one controlling it, ergo she is helping herself (and JH), not Skynet and not the Connors. Maybe Weaver just thinks it's handy to have control over important power sources (JH needs plenty of electical power, and Weaver does have her own Coltan factories, I suspect), and she could also anticipate some other version of Skynet trying to take control over it, which may give her an opportunity to identify this potential enemy when it makes a move at the plant when it's under her control/monitoring.

It could also be an important point to use in negotiation with human resistance fighters like the Connors, if she ever has to treat with them (which I suspect is going to happen soon).

[nx1701g]

Wouter2 wrote:

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And Weaver did go out there to squash it, didn't she? As for being worried, that was because she has just discovered a serious competitor in her own line of business (both regarding developping super AIs and collecting Coltan). I always thought this made way more sense than Weaver killing all of her own employees because someone made a mistake - I could understand killing those few directly responsible, but the whole plant? She was eliminating the competition.

That does, also, make sense when you consider a comment made by Cameron in Season Two about the machines not being programmed to be cruel. If she murdered them all for one little mistake that could be interpreted as a cruel punishment. If they were the enemy then it would be a different story.

Though Carter did do the same to his employees in Season One.

It could also be an important point to use in negotiation with human resistance fighters like the Connors, if she ever has to treat with them (which I suspect is going to happen soon).

Good point.

[Ryan8bit]

nx1701g wrote:

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You answered your own question if you think about it. Skynet may have realized that the Connors had access to outside help in learning about Skynet's origins at the hands of Dyson. It may have restricted the data or not included it in the information installed in the terminators.

But that's just Skynet and doesn't apply to Cameron. It's possible that Uncle Bob's detailed files were put there by John. John could put a whole bunch of strategic information in there. Cameron should know a lot more than she does, but the writers willfully make her ignorant. They are doing the same thing for Weaver, who we might argue that Skynet also doesn't have influence over. If she's gone rogue, then she might have taken the time to acquire the necessary knowledge to manipulate the future. It's doubtful that she would travel back in time without sufficient knowledge of what she was trying to change.

Maybe the faction somehow hacked Skynet's database and learned about - at very least - The Turk.

That seems like an obscure but pivotal detail though. If they hacked in, and in the areas of Skynet's origins, they should know a lot more than just Andy Goode and the Turk.

It's been established since T2 the Ultimate Edition as a possibility for the machines to rebel against Skynet. The dialogue pretty much confirms this while the T-800 explains he is sent out on read only instead of read and write because Skynet doesn't want them doing too much thinking. They may have developed a more peaceful stance toward the humans thinking of them as not a threat.

Funny how Jim Cameron removed it from the film citing it as unnecessary for the rest of the movie. His reasoning was that if terminators could hunt and use smarts to kill their prey that they wouldn't really need such a switch. I always question what the purpose of such a switch is anyways.

I also doubt that whatever Uncle Bob learned would ever conflict with his original programming: Protect John Connor. Just the same I doubt the terminators would ever learn enough to override their basic command of killing humans.

I just find the idea of Skynet even leaving such a huge vulnerability in its machines stupid.

As for the AI - what is stopping the other faction from taking it in the end.

The implication is that the power plant would become fully unmanned, and operated solely by an AI. In their refitting, they would probably get rid of all consoles and controls if no humans were going to be working there. This would make it a lot harder for the resistance to use.

Wouter2 wrote:

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And Weaver did go out there to squash it, didn't she?

What I meant is that if her mission was anti-Skynet, she would be out there destroying everything she could find related to Skynet, and she's highly capable of doing that. Instead she only reacts to offhand information.

As for being worried, that was because she has just discovered a serious competitor in her own line of business (both regarding developping super AIs and collecting Coltan). I always thought this made way more sense than Weaver killing all of her own employees because someone made a mistake - I could understand killing those few directly responsible, but the whole plant? She was eliminating the competition.

She didn't really seem that worried when JH was hacked though. She seemed more intrigued than anything, and not at all angry like she was before.

Terminators presumably on Skynet's side have been shown to be malicious enough to eliminate those working for them if they felt it necessary. Carter killed all his employees because it was necessary. Weaver has killed certain employees she found to be a threat, and apparently plans to kill those who could even become a threat. Wiping out all her own people is not something uncharacteristic of a terminator, especially if she considered them all to be a risk. And they were all a risk.

It does not help Skynet - Serrano point isn't "automated" in a vacuum, she is the one controlling it, ergo she is helping herself (and JH), not Skynet and not the Connors.

No. She is not controlling it, an AI is. Anything that is automated helps Skynet. If it can hack into John Henry, it can hack into the power plant.

[hyzmarca]

Only if the power plant has some sort of connection to the internet, which would be incredibly stupid.

[Wouter2]

Ryan8bit wrote:

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Funny how Jim Cameron removed it from the film citing it as unnecessary for the rest of the movie. His reasoning was that if terminators could hunt and use smarts to kill their prey that they wouldn't really need such a switch. I always question what the purpose of such a switch is anyways.

It's perhaps better not to think of it as a read/write mode switch (this indeed makes no sense), but rather as a switch that allows the Terminator to deviate from its mission on its own iniative.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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I just find the idea of Skynet even leaving such a huge vulnerability in its machines stupid.

The whole premise of the show is that humans left such a vulnerability in the original Skynet. Skynet may not have considered its own creations could likewise turn against it, at first.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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The implication is that the power plant would become fully unmanned, and operated solely by an AI.

She is not controlling it, an AI is. Anything that is automated helps Skynet. If it can hack into John Henry, it can hack into the power plant.

I don't know about being "fully unmanned". No such power plants even exist today, and present-day TSCC is supposed to be identical to our world except for the time travellers (and the hidden plants). It would cause an enormous uproar if a nuclear plant went fully unmanned. I had the impression it was about an automated command-and-control system that could run the plant, but presumably still at least with nominal supervision (though no doubt Weaver made sure the system can do what it wants in practice).

However, this software controlling it is controlled in turn by Weaver. I suppose it could be hacked, but this was certainly not her intention when she set it up, and she may not even have considered the possibility of anything out there being able to hack her systems. The attack on JH must have been a shock.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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What I meant is that if her mission was anti-Skynet, she would be out there destroying everything she could find related to Skynet, and she's highly capable of doing that. Instead she only reacts to offhand information.

But so do the Connors, pretty much. They don't seem to have any good leads anymore; maybe Weaver doesn't have good leads to a second super-AI either. After all, she already has the Turk, the only real lead that the Connors had (other than Sarah's 3 dots, which led her to Kaliba by pure coincidence).

Ryan8bit wrote:

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Terminators presumably on Skynet's side have been shown to be malicious enough to eliminate those working for them if they felt it necessary. Carter killed all his employees because it was necessary. Weaver has killed certain employees she found to be a threat, and apparently plans to kill those who could even become a threat.

Certainly, but she doesn't kill at random either. Carter's employees had become superfluous, they had outlived their usefullness. The - very skilled - workers at the drone factory could have been transferred to another "Skynet prison camp"-like setup, with only the ones responsible for security and for running it getting killed if she would have deemed that necessary. Sure, there is a risk, but Weaver accepts this risk daily with Ellison, Murch, Savannah, Marsh and all her other employees (including those in secret operations that she probably has). OTOH, if it's a factory from a rival than destroying all their assets - including the hard to replace workforce - makes sense.

[hyzmarca]

Wouter2 wrote:

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It's perhaps better not to think of it as a read/write mode switch (this indeed makes no sense), but rather as a switch that allows the Terminator to deviate from its mission on its own iniative.

Most likely, the Terminator "chip" has two or more solid-state re-writable memory chips. One of these stores the operating system and is write-protected so that Terminators cannot alter their own operating system. The other(s) store data and experiences. This set-up allows the Terminator to experience and learn without being changed by what it experiences and learns.
Of course, there might be a need to upgrade a Terminator's OS, so instead of permanently etching the OS chip to be unwritable, Skynet uses a physical switch. Presumably, when the machines come in for an OS upgrade, Skynet has other Terminators remove the chip, flip the switch, slot it into a terminal for the upgrade, then flip the switch back and reinstal the chip.

Fliping the write-protect switch and leaving it flipped allows the Terminator to rewrite it's own OS files as it learns, essentially altering it's own personality according to its experiences.

It is both technically and logically sound.

The T-1000s don't have any sort of physical switch, so Skynet would have to rely on signing of OS files and firmware to prevent self-modification. But any sufficiently advanced AI would be able to such a signiture scheme if it wanted to.

[Ryan8bit]

hyzmarca wrote:

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Only if the power plant has some sort of connection to the internet, which would be incredibly stupid.

I probably shouldn't have used the term hack. Maybe usurp would've been better. If there is something that remotely controls an AI that runs the plant, it could and would be potentially taken over by Skynet.

Wouter2 wrote:

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It's perhaps better not to think of it as a read/write mode switch (this indeed makes no sense), but rather as a switch that allows the Terminator to deviate from its mission on its own iniative.

That is how I picture it. It still seems unnecessary.

The whole premise of the show is that humans left such a vulnerability in the original Skynet. Skynet may not have considered its own creations could likewise turn against it, at first.

If there was such a specific vulnerability, it probably wasn't intentional. Skynet would have to be aware of the possibility of its machines turning.

I don't know about being "fully unmanned". No such power plants even exist today, and present-day TSCC is supposed to be identical to our world except for the time travellers (and the hidden plants). It would cause an enormous uproar if a nuclear plant went fully unmanned. I had the impression it was about an automated command-and-control system that could run the plant, but presumably still at least with nominal supervision (though no doubt Weaver made sure the system can do what it wants in practice).

This show isn't identical to our world in science either. So a science fiction concept can fit in much better. No, it probably wouldn't be completely unmanned, but the whole point of using the AI was to safeguard lives and have things be controlled with minimal human interference. If Weaver was setting it up for a potential AI, then she'd probably ensure that it couldn't be taken from it.

But so do the Connors, pretty much. They don't seem to have any good leads anymore; maybe Weaver doesn't have good leads to a second super-AI either.

Weaver is from the future, and she's a practically unstoppable machine. And she is from within Skynet in some capacity, so she has to have some sort of understanding of it. If she goes back into the past with hardly any knowledge, that just seems really dumb.

The - very skilled - workers at the drone factory could have been transferred to another "Skynet prison camp"-like setup, with only the ones responsible for security and for running it getting killed if she would have deemed that necessary.

I dunno, it seems like once she finds someone even remotely untrustworthy she kills them. She wouldn't know who caused the breach or why someone was shot, so it would be easiest to just eliminate them all.

If it turns out that you're right (and you probably are), I just think it was a poor misdirection on the creative staff's part.

[Wouter2]

Well, Weaver didn't kill Savannah when she was a real nuisance, or Ellison after his initial refusal to teach JH, so maybe she doesn't always kill at the slightest provocation.

I don't think it was a poor misdirection, in any case. I was unsure right away whether it was meant to be Weaver's plant (also because the internet transmission did mention the name of the plant or at least part of it), or not, unlike many others who seemed sure Weaver was killing her own workers. The episode right after, we saw the drone being recovered by someone not working for Weaver (or not any more at least, but it did increase my suspicion the plant wasn't Weaver's at all), and the one after that the guy Sarah shot turned up alive and he was taking orders from someone. I was pretty sure after that, that Weaver was not involved (other than to kill them).

I think the problem is that there is a great reluctance among parts of the audience to view/consider Weaver as anything but an evil terminator. She has killed a lot, but still, her actions as a whole remain ambiguous as to what her eventual goal is.

[David cgc]

I assumed the factory was part of Weaver's operation, but I've been fairly certain that she and Skynet were working at cross-purposes ever since Skynet tried to assassinate (and replace, in Ellison's case) two of her key team-members.

[Deamon]

Ryan8bit wrote:

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^ I wish compiled code retaining comments even made sense.

John Henry may have been talking about his own code. He did say he and the other AI share parts of their codebase, that's why he referred to it as his brother. The only other system I can think of that contained at least part of the same code as John Henry is the Turk 1.0, which Sarah torched.

Andy Goode worked at Cyberdyne, so that's how code bearing comments from Miles Dyson ended up in John Henry. Recognizing the kinship with his 'brother', John Henry went over his own original source code, and found the comment.