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Old April 2 2009, 05:45 AM   #511
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DWF wrote: View Post
Well done on both counts. The warp drive issue should have been addressed this week, and the low power reserves should be addressed next week (even though they won't.)
I really can't understand this complaint at all, DS9 lost an upper pylon in To The Death it was fixed and nobody mentioned it was even detached from the station afterward.
DS9 has spare supplies and access to Starfleet. Making repairs is perfectly reasonable in their case. Voyager is alone with no access to a starbase or the SCE.

All that said, the issue with the Jem'hadar vs the Vorta (as well as the issue of their loyalty) would come up again...that was the important part of the episode.
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Old April 2 2009, 10:25 AM   #512
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Deadlock (**½)
I'd rate this one higher as I've always liked it. I felt it was dark and creepy and interesting. And I love the Vidiians. So I'd give this one **** stars. I don't do half stars, and I think it's better than average. I know what you mean about the problems with the ship, but as I've said before, I have to take each Voyager episode on it's own, otherwise it's hard for me to enjoy it at all.

Robotech Master wrote: View Post
So is this the last time we see the Vidiians?
Nope. The Vidiians return in "Resolutions", "Coda" & "Fury"; they're referenced in "Infinite Regress" & "Think Tank" - the latter of which mentions that the Phage they suffer from has since been cured.

DWF wrote: View Post
Well done on both counts. The warp drive issue should have been addressed this week, and the low power reserves should be addressed next week (even though they won't.)
I really can't understand this complaint at all, DS9 lost an upper pylon in To The Death it was fixed and nobody mentioned it was even detached from the station afterward.
One of the pet peeves of fans that watch Voyager and actually pay attention, is that one of the missed story opportunities is that Voyager is all on it's own and should be struggling to make repairs and such; the number of shuttles and torpedos and such should have been a constant storyline; they can't stop in at a starbase and get it all sorted out. This makes sense, and could have driven much of the series, but the writers just chose to ignore these basic tennants that truly made Voyager unique in the Trek universe. This a continual flaw throughout the series, with only 1 or 2 exceptions. The writers seemed to feel that since the Enterprise or the Defiant could get fast repairs that so could they, even though the circumstances for their series were completely different, making the series that much harder to accept...and often undermining the better stories within the series.

DS9 however could have had all kinds of help. But, for the record, even though it's plausible they could have had it fixed more easily than Voyager, it would have been nice if this had been referenced in a later episode. I think most fans of DS9 tend to overlook this as only slightly annoying, as this (in a complete reverse of voyager) was much more the exception than the rule. Things on DS9 were almost constantly brought back and referenced - making the relatively few times that this didn't happen, less annoying, though more noticable; reading behind the scenes stories from the writers and production team, it's also obvious that these flaws were often discussed and considered but fell through the cracks, leaving the impression that the writers respected the audience but sometimes made mistakes. Even the episode in question "To the Death" introduced the important recurring character of Weyoun, and followed up on a plotline from TNG's "Contagion".
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Old April 2 2009, 10:38 AM   #513
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DS9 however could have had all kinds of help. But, for the record, even though it's plausible they could have had it fixed more easily than Voyager, it would have been nice if this had been referenced in a later episode. I think most fans of DS9 tend to overlook this as only slightly annoying, as this (in a complete reverse of voyager) was much more the exception than the rule. Things on DS9 were almost constantly brought back and referenced - making the relatively few times that this didn't happen, less annoying, though more noticable; reading behind the scenes stories from the writers and production team, it's also obvious that these flaws were often discussed and considered but fell through the cracks, leaving the impression that the writers respected the audience but sometimes made mistakes. Even the episode in question "To the Death" introduced the important recurring character of Weyoun, and followed up on a plotline from TNG's "Contagion".
This logic only works for Federation vessels though not DS9 itself and the station was magicnally fixed by the next ep. without any comments about the station even being damaged.
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Old April 2 2009, 10:55 AM   #514
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DWF wrote: View Post
This logic only works for Federation vessels though not DS9 itself and the station was magicnally fixed by the next ep. without any comments about the station even being damaged.
Actually, that's not true - about the logic of it only being Federation ships, IMO. Any number of supply ships, starfleet vessels and allies could have been in the area to help; Voyager had no such support system. They're on their own. And this was an ongoing flaw in Voyager, where as the more easily accepted DS9 scenario was something of a fluke. But as I said, it would have been nice for a reference in a later episode; that kind of thing was common on DS9. The difference here is that when DS9 didn't reference the problem in a later episode it came as a surprise to the fans, while when it happened on Voyager, people actually expected that level of ignorance and weren't shocked at all.

I don't discount that the DS9 fluke was a mistake, and if the Voyager thing only happened in one episode you'd certainly have a good cause for complaint here, but the problem with Voyager happened on a regular basis...so you don't. There's just no comparison.
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Old April 2 2009, 02:39 PM   #515
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DWF wrote: View Post
Well done on both counts. The warp drive issue should have been addressed this week, and the low power reserves should be addressed next week (even though they won't.)
I really can't understand this complaint at all, DS9 lost an upper pylon in To The Death it was fixed and nobody mentioned it was even detached from the station afterward.
And I'm really irritated by that, it is one of the reasons why I don't rate To The Death and The Quickening as highly as some others do. I was hoping that we would see a new pylon on the station due to the fact it was rebuilt by Starfleet and not the Carddies, but that didn't happen any every time I watch To The Death I have to imagine that the damage is much less than what was shown.

neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
One of the pet peeves of fans that watch Voyager and actually pay attention, is that one of the missed story opportunities is that Voyager is all on it's own and should be struggling to make repairs and such; the number of shuttles and torpedos and such should have been a constant storyline; they can't stop in at a starbase and get it all sorted out. This makes sense, and could have driven much of the series, but the writers just chose to ignore these basic tennants that truly made Voyager unique in the Trek universe. This a continual flaw throughout the series, with only 1 or 2 exceptions. The writers seemed to feel that since the Enterprise or the Defiant could get fast repairs that so could they, even though the circumstances for their series were completely different, making the series that much harder to accept...and often undermining the better stories within the series.
I don't know if you know about Doug Drexler's awesome blog, but he posted this comment on it the other day which addressed this issue:

Doug Drexler wrote:
On BSG we got to do many things that we weren’t able to do on Trek... One thing we were especially pleased about was wrecking the Galactica little by little thru out the life of the series. We always hated that Voyager looked just as good in the finale, as it looked in episode one. We wanted the Voyager to be like the Bluesmobile at the end of the Blues Brothers… it hung on just long enough to get them there, then it sprang apart. We got to do that with the Galactica when it made it’s last jump. It was beautiful.
So apparently the SFX guys wanted the ship to get more damaged as the series went on but they weren't the ones making those kinds of creative decisions.
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Old April 2 2009, 03:57 PM   #516
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
I don't know if you know about Doug Drexler's awesome blog, but he posted this comment on it the other day which addressed this issue:

Doug Drexler wrote:
On BSG we got to do many things that we weren’t able to do on Trek... One thing we were especially pleased about was wrecking the Galactica little by little thru out the life of the series. We always hated that Voyager looked just as good in the finale, as it looked in episode one. We wanted the Voyager to be like the Bluesmobile at the end of the Blues Brothers… it hung on just long enough to get them there, then it sprang apart. We got to do that with the Galactica when it made it’s last jump. It was beautiful.
So apparently the SFX guys wanted the ship to get more damaged as the series went on but they weren't the ones making those kinds of creative decisions.
I had recently discovered Doug's blog, but I'd not read that bit. It is comforting to know that there were people behind the scenes talking about these problems, though it sucks that they weren't able to get that kind of thing into the actual series.
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Old April 2 2009, 05:48 PM   #517
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Cats in the Cradle (**½)

This isn't a great episode, but it does have some nice character moments and it ties in nicely to one of my favourite TOS episodes. Meeting the Old Ones mentioned by Korob and Sylvia in Catspaw is something I hoped would happen for a long time, but the idea that they live in the Delta Quadrant doesn't seem to tie in with the previous claim that they live in some other realm without sensation. But I guess you just have to go along with it.

The story is fairly pedestrian, Voyager comes across aliens with magic powers, Voyager asks to be sent home, the aliens turn out to not be what they seem and then then turn into giant cats and chase Janeway and Paris through some corridors. This is just covering old ground that we already saw on TOS.

However this episode has some great character development for Harry Kim who really comes alive as a character like I've not seen him before. He dies, of course, but the heroic sacrifice he makes by standing up to the giant cat with only a sword in hand was deeply emotional. But then Shmullus goes and undoes the emotional punch of this episode by reviving Kim with some medical jargon.

And I'm not sure why they decided to use the same puppets from TOS when they could have come up with something much better using computer graphics. At least you can't see the strings this time.

A fun outing that gets a little silly but some great character work.
Ah, you did fool me there! I thought: "What's that? Must be one of the season 7 episodes I never watched."

But the title did look so strange, not familiar at all. Then, all of a sudden I realized what day it was!

Brilliant! I love when people do succeed in fooling me on this day. It seldom happens but when it does, then it's often brilliant.

I'll give the attempt to fool us 5 points out of 5!

I would love to see Neelix and Kim being surrounded by those big angry cats and in an attempt to soothe them, the start singing this song:

"And the cats in the cradle and the silver spoon,
Little boy blue and the man n the moon.
when you comin home?
son, I dont know when. well get together then.
You know well have a good time then."

"Cats In The Cradle"
Ugly Kid Joe

By the way, those cats may have been Lynxes!
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Old April 2 2009, 10:01 PM   #518
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I think GodBen, Gotham Central, and neogothboy74 have basically summed up my feelings about why continuity issues like this are annoying, and why Voyager in particular is a special case where extra attention should have been paid.

And I think Doug Drexler has proven once again that he and his fellows in the art department were much more aware of this type of stuff than we have generally given them credit for - they were only shot down by TPTB.

GodBen wrote: View Post
And I'm really irritated by that, it is one of the reasons why I don't rate To The Death and The Quickening as highly as some others do. I was hoping that we would see a new pylon on the station due to the fact it was rebuilt by Starfleet and not the Carddies, but that didn't happen any every time I watch To The Death I have to imagine that the damage is much less than what was shown.
If it makes you feel better, the DS9 TM mentions it a bit, and talks about how the Starfleet Corps of Engineers stationed on the station used in-depth molecular scans from when Starfleet first took over the station to replicate and rebuild an astonishingly nearly-perfect pylon replacement which matched the original one almost completely, and mentions them cutting down and preparing the damaged pylon 'root' and rebuilding it within a relatively short time, all of it a quite impressive engineering feat.

It's all rather a giant wink, but it makes it just a tad better, IMO.
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Old April 2 2009, 10:58 PM   #519
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
If it makes you feel better, the DS9 TM mentions it a bit, and talks about how the Starfleet Corps of Engineers stationed on the station used in-depth molecular scans from when Starfleet first took over the station to replicate and rebuild an astonishingly nearly-perfect pylon replacement which matched the original one almost completely, and mentions them cutting down and preparing the damaged pylon 'root' and rebuilding it within a relatively short time, all of it a quite impressive engineering feat.
While this may have been possible (and it is what we have to accept because it seems to be exactly what happened), I don't understand why they rebuilt it exactly like the original. DS9 was built upon 40 year-old Cardassian technology, it would have been nice if they decided to rebuild the new pylon as a more advanced and efficient Starfleet pylon. It would have added character to the station.


Innocence (*)

Tuvok is involved in a crash in the jungle, he struggles to try and escape while mysterious strangers try to stop him, and there is a monster. It's LOST... In Space!

The problem with this episode is that everybody acts stupid, nobody talks to one another or bothers explaining what is going on until after there has been a lot of needless confrontation. It really is like an episode of Lost without the charm. It ends with a long scene of exposition where everything is explained and suddenly everyone is friends and all is forgiven. Basically, the whole plot is pretty pointless.

It's not bad, there is some good characterisation for Tuvok and that prevents the episode from being a complete dud. I don't really have much else to say about this episode.

Minus one star because Voyager is miraculously back to normal after nearly being destroyed in the last episode.

PS Is anyone else curious as to how one would give birth to a fully grown 80-year-old person?
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Old April 3 2009, 12:00 AM   #520
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Star Trek's version of 'The Curious Case of Benajamin Button'!

This episode didn't do a whole lot for me. It was pleasant enough but kind of pointless.

I don't know if we really needed a whole episode to gather that Tuvok was a good parent. It could have been a subplot in a more substantive episode, IMO.

Or it might have been better if it had used the rest of the cast more effectively.
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Old April 3 2009, 12:13 AM   #521
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
If it makes you feel better, the DS9 TM mentions it a bit, and talks about how the Starfleet Corps of Engineers stationed on the station used in-depth molecular scans from when Starfleet first took over the station to replicate and rebuild an astonishingly nearly-perfect pylon replacement which matched the original one almost completely, and mentions them cutting down and preparing the damaged pylon 'root' and rebuilding it within a relatively short time, all of it a quite impressive engineering feat.
While this may have been possible (and it is what we have to accept because it seems to be exactly what happened), I don't understand why they rebuilt it exactly like the original. DS9 was built upon 40 year-old Cardassian technology, it would have been nice if they decided to rebuild the new pylon as a more advanced and efficient Starfleet pylon. It would have added character to the station.
From an asthetic sense, it looks better for the station to match, though. And, given that I love the Cardassian design, I prefer it.

Also, from the out-of-universe perspective, that would just play hell with the stock footage.

Did we actually see any station exteriors at the start of 'The Quickening'? Maybe most of the work was being done while Bashir spent his time on the Teplan's planet - I seem to recall that episode having a time frame of a month or so.
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Old April 3 2009, 12:17 AM   #522
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
If it makes you feel better, the DS9 TM mentions it a bit, and talks about how the Starfleet Corps of Engineers stationed on the station used in-depth molecular scans from when Starfleet first took over the station to replicate and rebuild an astonishingly nearly-perfect pylon replacement which matched the original one almost completely, and mentions them cutting down and preparing the damaged pylon 'root' and rebuilding it within a relatively short time, all of it a quite impressive engineering feat.
While this may have been possible (and it is what we have to accept because it seems to be exactly what happened), I don't understand why they rebuilt it exactly like the original. DS9 was built upon 40 year-old Cardassian technology, it would have been nice if they decided to rebuild the new pylon as a more advanced and efficient Starfleet pylon. It would have added character to the station.
Well, the 'real' reason is that they probably didn't want to modify the miniature, and as DGCatAniSiri points out, they would have had to redo stock footage and so on, which given how reluctant they were to create new footage for the battles later on I'm sure they didn't want to do. Also, the station was built between 2346 and 2351 and the show started in 2369, so technically it's not that obsolete, especially if the TOS Enterprise is any indication.

Regarding technological quality, I think there's a line in the TM about having to 'match up' to the station's equipment, which IIRC according to the TM had already been 'improved' with Starfleet technology in various ways - among them life support, computers, and (get this) a more robust self-destruct system.



Innocence (*)
Agreed. It's fun for Tuvok's character moments, but that's about it. There was probably a clever idea buried in there somewhere, as a lot of people seemed to like 'Benjamin Buttin' but the science of it seems to defy logic.
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Old April 3 2009, 12:44 AM   #523
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Fine, I guess I'll just have to live with that beautifully ugly station the way it was.
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Old April 3 2009, 12:54 AM   #524
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
PS Is anyone else curious as to how one would give birth to a fully grown 80-year-old person?
This one drove me to distraction.

I liked Tim's work in it. I liked the little girl/old lady.

But my medical background just couldn't allow me to suspend disbelief enough...
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Old April 3 2009, 01:18 AM   #525
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Fine, I guess I'll just have to live with that beautifully ugly station the way it was.
*hug*

It's okay. Have some kanar. It's no KoolAid, but drink enough and you may start to like it.
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