"She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

[Praetor]

Ptolemy doesn't look 'just' like it... it has nacelles below from an ordinary TOS saucer, and a neck meant for connecting with container pods.

[Aquehonga]

Praetor, I've never noticed any significant difference between Ptolemys & Mirandas.

I'll take your & the other aficionados word for it though

I wonder if Chekhov became captain of Reliant-A, or would it be Reliant II, the way Sulu became the Excelsior's captain?

[Praetor]

Sorry there, I realize that read a little hostile. No hostility meant.

There have been TOSifications of the Miranda. The best one's called the Surya class, I think. I would imagine the new Reliant would just have a different registry number, rather than an 'A' or 'II'.

I believe in the novels, Chekov became Sulu's first officer after TUC.

It always struck me as odd that he was the only one of the TOS crew that actually seemed to move on with his career, other than Sulu later. (Of course, Sulu was supposed to be referenced as getting a command in TWOK to appease George Takei until it was cut out.)

[Aquehonga]

^, that Surya is a beautiful design.

That cut Sulu scene from TWOK would've been nice.

I wonder if Chekov lived to meet Geordi & O'Brien?

It seems only 1701's, & maybe a few others, get A, B, C, D, E,....J entc ent al.

[Praetor]

Aquehonga wrote:

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^, that Surya is a beautiful design.

I agree. The one thing I might change is to actually have the pylons intersect the hull edge as on the Reliant to make a presumed 'refit' seem less... refit.

Then again, from TOS to TMP the Enterprise pylon root location moved too, so it's not a big deal.

That cut Sulu scene from TWOK would've been nice.

Also agreed. What's funny is, IIRC the way George delivered it, he was afraid they would cut it so he tried to keep talking so fast they wouldn't want to cut it. When you watch the scene in the travel pod and he's saying 'Any chance to go aboard the Enterpise--' and appears to be cut off in mid-sentence? Well, apparently he was.

I wonder if Chekov lived to meet Geordi & O'Brien?

Well, according to the novels Uhura lived long enough to meet Sisko. (She became head of Starfleet Intelligence.) Not sure about Chekov.

It seems only 1701's, & maybe a few others, get A, B, C, D, E,....J entc ent al.

There was an unofficial rule sort of like the rule about even numbers of warp engines (and it may have well been 'imposed' by Roddenberry himself) that the Enterprise should be the only ship to have that distinction.

Technically, we've seen a canon violation of that - in 'Where Silence Has Lease' Riker gives the Yamato's registry as NCC-1305-E but it was later 'corrected' to NCC-71807 in 'Contagion.' Technically, the former was an alien reproduction and the latter the 'real' ship, but still. Read more here.

[Silversmok3]

I believe Spock was speaking literally when he said Reliant could outrun and outgun Enterprise.

So,why did Enterprise win the day?

Ironically,in this fight Kirk had all the advantages.While Khan stole an ideal starship for his goals,he either failed to understand or ignored the sparcity of his crew.

Yes,Enterprise took a severe beating in the first act.However,trainees or not,Kirk had a full staff of knowledgeable starfleet personell to restore whatever was damaged.

Khan obviously did not.Once something gets shot out on Reliant,it was staying broken.Kirk could lose his engines and warp drive,and fix it all with enough time.When Khan lost his warp nacelle it was curtains-whats he gonna do,go to a fleet yard for a new one?

Genetically engineered or not,there's no way you're gonna learn how to operate a starship that complex-and fix it-in the short time Khan had under battlefield conditions.

Hence why a showdown in a Nebula was preferable to a fight in open space-one shot from Enterprise did more damage than 3 from the gun-toting Reliant.And huge engines don't matter when you're blind-where ya gonna run to?

[Praetor]

I think that's a pretty fair assessment.

[Wingsley]

The actual quote from the movie was "She can still outrun and outgun us".

The "still" could simply be a contextual qualifier. That is to say, even with the repairs Spock was able to oversee while Kirk and party were underground, the Enterprise and Reliant were both still severely damaged vessels, and apparently the Enterprise took the worst damage of the two. Spock's remark could mean that Reliant was not as crippled as Enterprise. This would say nothing about the military appraisals of their respective starship classes.

It was never clear to me what Reliant (and Saratoga after it) was supposed to be. A lighter cruiser than the Constitution-class ships? Some special type of limited-production Federation destroyer/warship? Or were certain ships like Reliant and Saratoga supposed to be mission-specific mods, fitted with special pods and other add-ons to fill specialized roles? (When the mission is over, they go back to starbase to be fitted for different missions)

There were other things seemed odd. The roll-bar thingy seemed very un-TREK like to me. The design seemed to be very 80s, with too much surface detailing that reminded me of STAR WARS and SPACE: 1999 and the like. But that's just me.

[Praetor]

Wingsley wrote:

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The actual quote from the movie was "She can still outrun and outgun us".

Wanna bet?

The "still" could simply be a contextual qualifier. That is to say, even with the repairs Spock was able to oversee while Kirk and party were underground, the Enterprise and Reliant were both still severely damaged vessels, and apparently the Enterprise took the worst damage of the two. Spock's remark could mean that Reliant was not as crippled as Enterprise. This would say nothing about the military appraisals of their respective starship classes.

Hence, the purpose of my OP. I had always assumed this was the case, but was now reconsidering.

It was never clear to me what Reliant (and Saratoga after it) was supposed to be. A lighter cruiser than the Constitution-class ships? Some special type of limited-production Federation destroyer/warship? Or were certain ships like Reliant and Saratoga supposed to be mission-specific mods, fitted with special pods and other add-ons to fill specialized roles? (When the mission is over, they go back to starbase to be fitted for different missions)

I'd stir those options til blended for maximum correctness.

There were other things seemed odd. The roll-bar thingy seemed very un-TREK like to me. The design seemed to be very 80s, with too much surface detailing that reminded me of STAR WARS and SPACE: 1999 and the like. But that's just me.

Eh, it did have those two ginormous 'strips' on the dorsal real area. Other than that, I didn't think it was terribly Star Wars or Space:1999 derivative or cluttery boilerplate, and certainly no more 80s than the design of the Enterprise.

[USS Jack Riley]

Wingsley wrote:

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The actual quote from the movie was "She can still outrun and outgun us".

The "still" could simply be a contextual qualifier. That is to say, even with the repairs Spock was able to oversee while Kirk and party were underground, the Enterprise and Reliant were both still severely damaged vessels, and apparently the Enterprise took the worst damage of the two. Spock's remark could mean that Reliant was not as crippled as Enterprise. This would say nothing about the military appraisals of their respective starship classes.

That is my take and what I tried (however poorly) to convey upthread. That despite Scotty's best efforts to get the ship back up and running at full strength, they were still underpowered in comparison to Reliant. Remember that Reliant had taken a few phaser hits while phaser lock was inoperative. Enterprise, on the other hand, had taken multiple phaser hits, with Reliant's phaser lock operational, not to mention a photon torpedo. She may have fended off Khan's surprise attack, but it was a pyrhic (I just KNOW I spelled that wrong) victory. Yes, Enterprise was okay for now, but Reliant was not destroyed in the counter attack.

When Kirk beams back aboard and tried to use the turbolifts, Spock informs him that they aren't working below C deck (I believe). Kirk asks what is working and Spock replies something to the effect of, "Not much Admiral."

Reliant was in better condition not because it was the better ship to begin with (when Khan first approached Enterprise and initiated the surprise attack), but because of the effects of the attack, for which Scotty was still trying to repair damage.

Just my $0.02.

[Timo]

One might argue that the respective repairs of the two ships once again showed the value of experience. Khan got his auxiliary power fully back, apparently making his ship the superior impulse combatant. But Spock and Scotty went instead for partial main power, meaning that their ship had at least limited warp capability where Khan had none. And that saved their asses in the end.

Timo Saloniemi

[diankra]

USS Jack Riley wrote:

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Remember that Reliant had taken a few phaser hits while phaser lock was inoperative. Enterprise, on the other hand, had taken multiple phaser hits, with Reliant's phaser lock operational, not to mention a photon torpedo. She may have fended off Khan's surprise attack, but it was a pyrhic (I just KNOW I spelled that wrong) victory. Yes, Enterprise was okay for now, but Reliant was not destroyed in the counter attack.

Picky mode on, but that's really not a pyrrhic victory anyway... if Reliant had been destroyed by Kirk's prefix code trick attack, but Enterprise was already so badly damaged that they couldn't restore power and life support before the crew died... then that would be a text book pyrrhic victory.
Picky mode off!

[swaaye]

The Ent had only partial impulse power and little if any warp reactor power when Spock said the line. Reliant seemed to be basically fully functional yet.

So it's just all guessing as to what Spock meant, but I doubt either ship had a completely decisive advantage when both were in peak condition. They were from the same era after all and Ent was a beefy heavy cruiser.

The nebula completely saved the day for Kirk and gang IMO. Once Kirk spent the wild card of the prefix codes, I think Ent was done for in open space where Khan could easily unload on crippled Ent.

[Timo]

Khan's crew weren't complete klutzes when it came to repairs. Joachim said that Kirk's initial shots knocked out "warp drive" and "photon controls"; we never heard them recover warp drive, but we do see that they can once again fire photon torpedoes in the second battle, suggesting that "photon controls" were indeed repaired. Whether the repairs were successful is another question: the warning shot that was supposed to prevent Kirk from entering the nebula did not succeed, and the aft torp that was supposed to hit Kirk in the nebula did not. But even fully functional "photon controls" might have produced those results in those conditions...

It does seem plausible that Joachim would repair the torpedo systems first, in anticipation of a battle with the "will go nowhere" Enterprise, and would save warp drive repairs for later. And Joachim's triumphant "Auxiliary power restored!" does suggest to me that primary power was not restored.

Timo Saloniemi

[USS Jack Riley]

diankra wrote:

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Picky mode on, but that's really not a pyrrhic victory anyway... if Reliant had been destroyed by Kirk's prefix code trick attack, but Enterprise was already so badly damaged that they couldn't restore power and life support before the crew died... then that would be a text book pyrrhic victory.
Picky mode off!

Dang it!!! You are absolutely correct. Poor analogy on my part. Thanks for the correction.