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Old March 31 2009, 01:13 PM   #16
The Mirrorball Man
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

cultcross wrote: View Post
There was nothing exactly wrong with the Queen idea, and she worked OK in First Contact - but then she started appearing in every Borg episode in later Voyager, and suddenly it wasn't the Borg themselves that were the threat, it was just the queen, and her drones were basically mindless footsoldiers for our heroes to hack and slash their way through.
The exact same thing happened in Doctor Who in the 1980's, with Davros overshadowing his Dalek soldiers to the point that they became completely irrelevant.
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Old March 31 2009, 04:26 PM   #17
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

I see the Borg more as a philisophical debate.

If the collective are of one mind, who's one mind is dominate over the collective? So like in a Bee hive, the Queens one mind rules the collective by sending out commands thru frequency. Just like the Borg.

So in essance, the Borg are slaves ruled by a slave master, the Borg Queen. They're a threat because they come for you, take you & branwash you into slavery. Her slave, to do her will. She is the Borg, the beginning & the end. Human slavery is a concept that will never die, it's wrong but somewhere in the world and now the galaxy, it's allowed to exist. A Borg vessel is a metaphor for a sweat shop, I believe that's was the implication in "First Contact" of why a Borg Cube is so hot.
Why would advance computer technology give off heat in cold space? Unless that clue was given up for deeper meaning.
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Old March 31 2009, 04:49 PM   #18
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

I like Q still but VOY ruined the borg for me.
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Old March 31 2009, 05:12 PM   #19
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

I think the Queen works best if you show her to be not just the one to whom the collective is enslaved, but that the queen is also the slave of the collective. The collective will of the Borg is what drives her entire mind, and the actions of the Borg are driven by the queen. She is the center of the hive mind, not the leader of it. She would not exist with a body except as a Locutus-like mouthpiece.

The problem came when they didn't depict the queen this way, but as an embodied enemy who commanded drones, as this makes for better drama from a human confrontational standpoint. But this wasn't entirely Voyager's fault, as First Contact also depicted her in this manner, with the talk of the queen needing an equal in Locutus and whatnot. It showed less of the queen acting in this manner, but they set up the precedent.

People just have better feelings about her portrayal in FC, in my opinion, because First Contact is almost universally considered a great movie, whereas many dislike Voyager as a whole, which causes us to look upon anything from FC with a more forgiving eye. Which is fine, everyone has the right to like something better than something else. However, from a more subjective viewpoint, the actions and characteristics of the queen must be considered a fault of First Contact, not Voyager. Voyager went wrong by not using its ability to expand on the queen and portray her as something that kept the menace of the Borg intact.
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Old March 31 2009, 05:17 PM   #20
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

exodus wrote: View Post
I see the Borg more as a philisophical debate.
On this point I agree - the Borg are a comparison philosophy. However, on the rest...

If the collective are of one mind, who's one mind is dominate over the collective? So like in a Bee hive, the Queens one mind rules the collective by sending out commands thru frequency. Just like the Borg.
The idea that one person dominates the others goes against the original intent of them being a collective mind. It's not that one dominates, it's that they are all joined together. Their minds are linked into one giant mind that can do greater things. Like networking computers into a big supercomputer. More on the Queen in a moment...

So in essence, the Borg are slaves ruled by a slave master, the Borg Queen. They're a threat because they come for you, take you & brainwash you into slavery. Her slave, to do her will. She is the Borg, the beginning & the end. Human slavery is a concept that will never die, it's wrong but somewhere in the world and now the galaxy, it's allowed to exist. A Borg vessel is a metaphor for a sweat shop, I believe that's was the implication in "First Contact" of why a Borg Cube is so hot. Why would advance computer technology give off heat in cold space? Unless that clue was given up for deeper meaning.
I think you're so close here to the real truth of it that it could bite you. You are right that it's a metaphor for slavery - but not of the conventional oppressor/oppressed kind. I believe that the Borg were essentially a metaphor to represent 'groupthink' (and perhaps by extension Communism) and the dangers of giving over individuality totally to the common will. They do come and take you and brainwash you into slavery.

The 'Queen' is best viewed as just a personification of the Collective's mind - a conduit for their consciousness. She directs drones, similar to your bee analogy, but not at her personal whims - instead, at the needs of the Collective itself. Replace 'she' with 'they' and I think you're more on target to the original intent, regardless to what later writers tried to do with the Queen and making her a more traditional 'leader.'

Regarding the fact that the Queen behaves like an emotional individual - think of her as embodying the collective emotional individuality of the Borg. Consider: the Borg are used to getting what they want. The Borg Queen to some degree behaves like a spoiled little girl. Spoiled little girls are also used to getting what they want. Isn't it only natural and to some extent logical that the embodiment of the collective individuality of countless drones might develop a 'spoiled' and impatient 'personality,' particularly when dealing with what she repeatedly considers 'small' annoyances?
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Old March 31 2009, 05:40 PM   #21
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

Praetor wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
I see the Borg more as a philisophical debate.
On this point I agree - the Borg are a comparison philosophy. However, on the rest...

If the collective are of one mind, who's one mind is dominate over the collective? So like in a Bee hive, the Queens one mind rules the collective by sending out commands thru frequency. Just like the Borg.
The idea that one person dominates the others goes against the original intent of them being a collective mind. It's not that one dominates, it's that they are all joined together. Their minds are linked into one giant mind that can do greater things. Like networking computers into a big supercomputer. More on the Queen in a moment...
I see what you mean but the Borg pick and choose what species is worthy of assimilation & who isn't. They also decide what information, once that species is assimilated, is useful & what isn't. If left to a true collective mind, how would there ever be consensus of agreement amoung them of what is worthy and what isn't? Wouldn't it take one dominate mind to make that choice for all? The Borg would still require a mind to organize them, right?

We've seen even in "BOBW" that the Borg run on autopilot until certain command words are given. Ex: Assimilate, Regenerate, etc. If they need command words given by the Queen & function on auto-pilot, then doesn't both a dominate & collect mind exist?
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Old March 31 2009, 06:48 PM   #22
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

I don't know, I think we basically agree, and it's just a question of phrasing and semantics.

Maybe it's easier to think of the Queen as 'coordinator' and she's still beholden to the will of the minds? Surely they have some type of 'instantaneous democracy' that lets them decide what to do, who to assimilate, and so forth.
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Old March 31 2009, 07:36 PM   #23
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I don't know, I think we basically agree, and it's just a question of phrasing and semantics.
Yeah, you're probably right.
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Old March 31 2009, 11:02 PM   #24
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

Damask wrote: View Post
I think though the Borg were never really ever going to work if they appeared all the time. Even TNG's Borg stories got stale and they only had about five of them.

I'd be interested to hear how people would make the Borg a reoccurring enemy but not Voyagerize them.
Turn the Borg into an ideological enemy--even a temptation. A fictional analogue for communism, not a gross stereotype of it. They went the easy way from BoBW on--conceptualizing the life of a Borg as horrid in every conceivable way, a fate worse than death, to be avoided even at the extent of extinction. Turn the contest between the Federation and the Borg into a debate between possibilities for humanity--individualistic dignity at the cost of mortality and pain versus posthuman collectivism at the cost of freedom. Then you've got a concept that doesn't immediately degenerate into space zombies slowwwly advancing on you.

Also, I'd knock off the silly "they don't perceive us as a threat thing" after BoBW. They blew up your cube, idiots. They present a threat.
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Old April 1 2009, 12:22 AM   #25
Praetor
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Damask wrote: View Post
I think though the Borg were never really ever going to work if they appeared all the time. Even TNG's Borg stories got stale and they only had about five of them.

I'd be interested to hear how people would make the Borg a reoccurring enemy but not Voyagerize them.
Turn the Borg into an ideological enemy--even a temptation. A fictional analogue for communism, not a gross stereotype of it. They went the easy way from BoBW on--conceptualizing the life of a Borg as horrid in every conceivable way, a fate worse than death, to be avoided even at the extent of extinction. Turn the contest between the Federation and the Borg into a debate between possibilities for humanity--individualistic dignity at the cost of mortality and pain versus posthuman collectivism at the cost of freedom. Then you've got a concept that doesn't immediately degenerate into space zombies slowwwly advancing on you.

Also, I'd knock off the silly "they don't perceive us as a threat thing" after BoBW. They blew up your cube, idiots. They present a threat.
Dude, that's brilliant and I agree. I'd expect no less from you, of course.
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Old April 1 2009, 02:55 PM   #26
cultcross
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

Praetor wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Damask wrote: View Post
I think though the Borg were never really ever going to work if they appeared all the time. Even TNG's Borg stories got stale and they only had about five of them.

I'd be interested to hear how people would make the Borg a reoccurring enemy but not Voyagerize them.
Turn the Borg into an ideological enemy--even a temptation. A fictional analogue for communism, not a gross stereotype of it. They went the easy way from BoBW on--conceptualizing the life of a Borg as horrid in every conceivable way, a fate worse than death, to be avoided even at the extent of extinction. Turn the contest between the Federation and the Borg into a debate between possibilities for humanity--individualistic dignity at the cost of mortality and pain versus posthuman collectivism at the cost of freedom. Then you've got a concept that doesn't immediately degenerate into space zombies slowwwly advancing on you.

Also, I'd knock off the silly "they don't perceive us as a threat thing" after BoBW. They blew up your cube, idiots. They present a threat.
Dude, that's brilliant and I agree. I'd expect no less from you, of course.
Very interesting take on the whole thing, I agree. Btw, your avatar freaks me out Praetor!

I also agree with what Gotham Central said earlier - the Borg had to be unbeatable by Voyager and her crew - you could pull off a victory over the Borg by clever thinking or something once maybe twice, and have them still scary, but they should have shown episodes where they got well and truly decimated by the Borg - have them a bit like the Cylons in nuBSG's first season - they show up: it's not a case of stand and fight like good Starfleet officers, it's a case of fire everything you can while you get the hell out of there.
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Old April 1 2009, 03:31 PM   #27
jefferiestubes8
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the Borg more & the Borg Queen

Re: Borg Queen
cultcross wrote: View Post
she started appearing in every Borg episode in later Voyager, and suddenly it wasn't the Borg themselves that were the threat, it was just the queen, and her drones were basically mindless footsoldiers
Anwar wrote
the Borg are fundamentally boring as a recurring evil. They work better as the occasional threat seen every few seasons
I do agree.
The collective is a large concept but to dramatize it for television (or for feature film for that matter) you have to have individual characters to deliver dialogue and make the plot happen. The borg Queen was a character to do that but then it became so much about HER and with Janeway talking TO her. Negotiating WITH her to get 7of9 back.
The Borg do NOT negotiate. It ruins the large concept idea.

Damask wrote
I'd be interested to hear how people would make the Borg a reoccurring enemy but not Voyagerize them.
It is pretty hard to keep it in canon but could be possible.
I would be also interested in hearing how they could be a semi-regular character in a new series.
I would also like to see what if CGI borg would be more scary.
A borg CGI character model WAS created for the ENT episode Regeneration when the two are forced out of the airlock. I wonder how they would hold up for CGI closeups since they are not quite human especially with the color the skin turns once they become Borg.
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Old April 1 2009, 03:47 PM   #28
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

I never saw a Q episode that I didn't like, so I disagree with part B of this question.

But I heartily agree with part A. The Borg started out so creepy and ominous but they became...well, not exactly ordinary, but too much of a known quantity. Some of Voyager's earlier Borg episodes were good ones, but TPTB milked that cow for all it's worth, and I think they done milked it dry well before Voyager ended.

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Old April 1 2009, 09:34 PM   #29
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

I found Q amusing sometimes. His advances to Janeway made me laugh. The Borg began as scary and got scarier because the tubules allowed for easier assimilation.
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Old April 1 2009, 09:53 PM   #30
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Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.

Q was okay with the episode VOY episode "Death Wish."

The Borg were definitely worse with the Queen. The idea of Voyager making an alliance with the Borg was far-fetched, as was the Queen's personal vendetta against Janeway. I liked Seven initially, but she kind of stole the spotlight from the rest of the crew, and the Borg kids -- that was just too far for me.
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