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Old March 29 2009, 07:29 PM   #436
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Brit wrote: View Post
We base that on the relationships between the characters. Those of us that are big Voyager fans realized that the show was character driven and not particularly plot driven. Now there is nothing wrong with either way but if you tastes run to plot driven then chances are you don't care for Voyager as much as other shows. Conversely if you like character driven episodes then Voyager was good for you.

DS9 was actually plot driven with its big story arcs, some people loved that. Some of us love Voyager's characters. It's just different tastes.
While I understand where you are coming from I think that DS9 was as much a character show as it was a plot driven show. The fact is that a lot of the plot on DS9 stemmed from character decisions, such as Damar rebelling against the Dominion or Sisko lying to the Romulans in order to get them to join the war. I've just skimmed the episode list for DS9's final three seasons (which were the most "plot" based), and most of those episodes have a character based core. I am strongly of the opinion that DS9 was the most character based Trek series.

But as always, to each their own.


Deathwish (***)

This episode just laid it on a little too thickly in the first three acts for my taste. They go back to the big bang, the ship shrinks, they become a Christmas tree ornament, Riker shows up, Quinn saves Woodstock... it was all just too much. I'm also not a fan of Q showing up on Voyager in the first place; Q was Picard's nemesis, he shouldn't be showing up on Voyager just like I don't want Dukat showing up in the TNG movies. There was a time and a place for Q and it was called The Next Generation.

The bit where they visit a representation of the continuum was insightful and that rescues the episode somewhat. I can't imagine what it would be like to be immortal and to have done and seen everything I possibly could, and this episode brings up some good points about the pointlessness of being omnipotent. And how that feeds back into Q's realisation at the end of the episode that he was fighting for the wrong side is well done.

I'm a left-wing libertarian (if such a thing is possible) so I am strongly of the opinion that individuals have the right to do as they wish, especially choosing the time of their death. I just wish I didn't have to sit through three acts of sickly dessert before we got to the meat of the issue.
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Last edited by TheGodBen; March 29 2009 at 10:14 PM. Reason: misspelled dessert
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Old March 29 2009, 08:08 PM   #437
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I sort of feel that way about the various Trek shows too.

That they should be different enough to actually justify the making of a new series. If they are just churning out the same old stuff then it starts to feel more like they are milking a cash cow and less like a creative, unique opportunity to write interesting stories.

But, to be fair, the other Trek shows had that problem too.

TNG's 1st season was too much like TOS (done badly) and so it was despised. DS9's 1st felt very much like an average season of TNG (Vash, Q, Duras sisters, Lwaxana Troi, anomalies of the week) and it was also the weakest season of the show in my opinion.

Voyager, far too often, felt like TNG in the Delta Quadrant. It could have been SO much MORE. That is what makes it disappointing for me.

Like it or hate it, DS9 broke some real ground. Developing a full main cast plus a dozen recurring characters? Multiple, interconnected story arcs? A deep look at religion, politics, war, and corruption in and out of the Federation? Real character conflict and real, adult character relationships?

The Voyager writers were given a guaranteed 7 years to explore any sort of stories they wanted. They didn't have to worry about cancellation. They could have done so many interesting things! Any writing team would be blessed to have such a playground!

But instead we got more Q. More Borg. More anomalies. More holodeck stories. Why?
As someone said above, I think I would rather have watched the adventures of the starship Equinox for 5 or 6 years. It seemed like they had a far more interesting time in the DQ.

However, Voyager did have some good standalone episodes. I'll give them that.

I did like Deathwish (though that should have been the last we saw of Q). Dreadnought's plot was a litte tough for me to swallow, but it had some good 'Lanna moments.
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Old March 29 2009, 08:31 PM   #438
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Brit wrote: View Post

We base that on the relationships between the characters. Those of us that are big Voyager fans realized that the show was character driven and not particularly plot driven.

Brit
What? Most of the characters are the same at the end as they are at the start (expect for Janeway who seems to have three characters but I digress) - if people consider this to be character driven story-telling... yowza!

If we are saying that DS9 is the plot driven show - why is it that they found time to develop the characters?
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Old March 29 2009, 08:57 PM   #439
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.
There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.


What arc?
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Old March 29 2009, 09:13 PM   #440
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

We base that on the relationships between the characters. Those of us that are big Voyager fans realized that the show was character driven and not particularly plot driven.

Brit
What? Most of the characters are the same at the end as they are at the start (expect for Janeway who seems to have three characters but I digress) - if people consider this to be character driven story-telling... yowza!

If we are saying that DS9 is the plot driven show - why is it that they found time to develop the characters?
This is actually a good point and it shows how some voyager fans confuse the difference between character and plot driven stories. DS9 was a character driven show. The bulk of the stories were about the crew and the people they knew and met in the neighborhood. There is a reason that some detractors called it a soap opera. The show did many things right, but it was at its best when it came to character development. The people that you are introduced to in Emissary are very different folks in What you Leave Behind. Thats because character driven stories generally require them to change and grow or evolve over time.

Voyager, conversely, was ALL plot with very little character development. After seven years, you knew more about Nog and Garrak than than you did of Tom Paris, Chakotay, Tuvok and certainly Harry Kim. Even fans of the show admit that the writers dropped the ball on many characters. On DS9, the characters determined the direction of the story. On Voyager, the plot determines the actions of the characters. When people talk about Janeway being written inconsistently, this is exactly what they are talking about.
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Old March 29 2009, 09:41 PM   #441
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm not confused, I've spent a lot of time learning the difference between plot driven and character driven. You are confusing character developement as character driven and they are two very different things.

Brit
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Old March 29 2009, 10:20 PM   #442
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Guys and dolls, if we're going to keep talking about it, why don't we start another thread about whether VGR was plot or character driven and not hijack this one so we can let GodBen do his reviews? Please? I know part of the point of the reviews are evaluating and discussing a 'hater's' views on the show, but we shouldn't derail him.

GodBen wrote: View Post

Deathwish (***)

This episode just laid it on a little too thickly in the first three acts for my taste. They go back to the big bang, the ship shrinks, they become a Christmas tree ornament, Riker shows up, Quinn saves Woodstock... it was all just too much. I'm also not a fan of Q showing up on Voyager in the first place; Q was Picard's nemesis, he shouldn't be showing up on Voyager just like I don't want Dukat showing up in the TNG movies. There was a time and a place for Q and it was called The Next Generation.

The bit where they visit a representation of the continuum was insightful and that rescues the episode somewhat. I can't imagine what it would be like to be immortal and to have done and seen everything I possibly could, and this episode brings up some good points about the pointlessness of being omnipotent. And how that feeds back into Q's realisation at the end of the episode that he was fighting for the wrong side is well done.

I'm a left-wing libertarian (if such a thing is possible) so I am strongly of the opinion that individuals have the right to do as they wish, especially choosing the time of their death. I just wish I didn't have to sit through three acts of sickly desert before we got to the meat of the issue.
While this was in some ways a 'very special' episode, I think it was handled well, and was rather entertaining. It did what TOS often did well: addressing a modern ethical issue in a science fiction setting. Riker's cameo and the other 'trial' stuff was a bit gimmicky, and you're dead on that the first three acts were a bit too padded out and the substance crammed too tightly into the last bit of the show.

As to Q appearing on VGR: I'm of two minds about this. I agree that Q not sparring with Picard is weird. It just feels weird. It didn't seem right at all on DS9 with Sisko, and it still seems weird on VGR with Janeway. From what I understand, DeLancie and Mulgrew are close friends in the real world and this is part of the impetus for the crossovers. However, while it does verge on being overdone by the end of the show, Q's 'discovery' of Janeway by the freeing of Q2 is plausible enough to not be too cutesy. Also, DeLancie's and Mulgrew's relationship seems to shine through and makes for an interesting chemistry between the characters. So I can live with it. At least I enjoyed it for the most part.
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Old March 29 2009, 11:01 PM   #443
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

We knew plenty about Tom, but it was all flash in the pan glances of supreme insight that was never to be repeated again. Voyagers writing staff was like a relay race where the runners don't pass on their batons tot eh next runners but instead pull their own batons of different shapes and colours out of their back pocket and begin running... I'd extend this metaphor to suggest that the runners try specifically not to pass on their batons, and if by some accident they are supposed to pass on these batons to themselves as a the next runner doubled up, they just throw it away and sometimes argue that there was no one tryig to pass them a baton before they started and they were the first runner so of course they needed a new baton... Sorry.

Facts about Garrak and Nog were repeated and built upon and repeated and built upon and repeated and built upon as if they had real lives with foundations and momentum.
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Old March 29 2009, 11:30 PM   #444
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
Guys and dolls, if we're going to keep talking about it, why don't we start another thread about whether VGR was plot or character driven and not hijack this one so we can let GodBen to his reviews? Please? I know part of the point of the reviews are evaluating and discussing a 'hater's' views on the show, but we shouldn't derail him.
I think it is okay if people debate in here, it's not like as if I'll have another episode review until tomorrow at the earliest. I started this thread so that I could point out the flaws that I thought existed in Voyager and see how many other people agreed with me about those flaws or if they thought they were actually positive aspects of the show. I have found this debate about Voyager being character driven or not to be quite fascinating.

Personally, I don't think it was character driven, I think the characters were determined by the plot of each episode. If an episode needed Janeway to have a certain position then she had that position even if she expressed the reverse of that opinion in the past. It happens in nearly every show eventually, there was a blatant case of it in one of the last episodes of BSG, but I think that it happened on Voyager a lot more than most shows.


While this was in some ways a 'very special' episode, I think it was handled well, and was rather entertaining. It did what TOS often did well: addressing a modern ethical issue in a science fiction setting. Riker's cameo and the other 'trial' stuff was a bit gimmicky, and you're dead on that the first three acts were a bit too padded out and the substance crammed too tightly into the last bit of the show.
One of the problems I had with the first three acts is that Quinn didn't seem like a guy who was bored with living, it wasn't until that part where he said he was once a scarecrow because it was something he had never done before that I finally realised what he was getting at. I'm not sure if the episode was supposed to be like that, but I don't think it helped those first three acts.
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Old March 30 2009, 12:43 AM   #445
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

There were only a few characters that I felt had any depth on Voyager. One was Tom Paris. He changes from a problem child and a party boy into a good friend and family man. I always enjoyed Tom because he was so human and a lot like me, black sheep. Of course the Doctor changes immensely. There is also good growth in Seven.

On a side note, one of the things that I really liked about the ENT cast and characters, was that they felt like us. Really liked Trip, Archer and T'Pol together a lot.

The best cast chemistry,
TOS
DS9
ENT, there really was some great stuff with the main three and Reed.
TNG
VOY
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Old March 30 2009, 02:05 AM   #446
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Guys and dolls, if we're going to keep talking about it, why don't we start another thread about whether VGR was plot or character driven and not hijack this one so we can let GodBen to his reviews? Please? I know part of the point of the reviews are evaluating and discussing a 'hater's' views on the show, but we shouldn't derail him.
I think it is okay if people debate in here, it's not like as if I'll have another episode review until tomorrow at the earliest. I started this thread so that I could point out the flaws that I thought existed in Voyager and see how many other people agreed with me about those flaws or if they thought they were actually positive aspects of the show. I have found this debate about Voyager being character driven or not to be quite fascinating.
Okay then.

Personally, I don't think it was character driven, I think the characters were determined by the plot of each episode. If an episode needed Janeway to have a certain position then she had that position even if she expressed the reverse of that opinion in the past. It happens in nearly every show eventually, there was a blatant case of it in one of the last episodes of BSG, but I think that it happened on Voyager a lot more than most shows.
Not surprisingly... I agree!

While this was in some ways a 'very special' episode, I think it was handled well, and was rather entertaining. It did what TOS often did well: addressing a modern ethical issue in a science fiction setting. Riker's cameo and the other 'trial' stuff was a bit gimmicky, and you're dead on that the first three acts were a bit too padded out and the substance crammed too tightly into the last bit of the show.
One of the problems I had with the first three acts is that Quinn didn't seem like a guy who was bored with living, it wasn't until that part where he said he was once a scarecrow because it was something he had never done before that I finally realised what he was getting at. I'm not sure if the episode was supposed to be like that, but I don't think it helped those first three acts.
Trifecta... I agree with that too. I think Quinn's argument was understandable, though. It's surprising how boring it might ultimately be, if given enough time, to be omnipotent. At some point, surely there's nothing left that's personally exciting. And isn't that the parallel to the real-world issue of suicide?
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Old March 30 2009, 02:28 AM   #447
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Omniscience trumps time.

Quinn already knew what the next 6 billion years should have produced for him (if he had lived) and he would have experienced every second of it simultaneously alongside still again the previous 5 billion years without relief or respite, or is there some definition of "omniscience" I don't know about?

Ipso facto he already knew he was going to kill himself billions of years before the trial but he pretended that he might live on to preserve causality from the mortals perspective so they wouldn't fight fate.

Like a junky trying to get a fix from a free clinic really.
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Old March 30 2009, 02:31 AM   #448
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
Trifecta... I agree with that too.
Ding ding ding!! That's three agreements in a row, you win this fabulous GodBen keyring!

I think Quinn's argument was understandable, though. It's surprising how boring it might ultimately be, if given enough time, to be omnipotent. At some point, surely there's nothing left that's personally exciting. And isn't that the parallel to the real-world issue of suicide?
I can definitely understand Quinn's position. The way I see it, the only reason I will get up tomorrow is out of a belief that tomorrow will be a better day than today. If I lost that belief, if I felt that tomorrow is going to be a worse day and that there would never again be a day in my life worth anything, I would consider whether I should going on. I believe that the right to life we all have includes with it a right to end that life at a time of our choosing and no society should deny an individual that right.

There is a really great story in this episode which almost got sidetracked by the antics of Q. Almost.
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Old March 30 2009, 05:19 AM   #449
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
I can definitely understand Quinn's position. The way I see it, the only reason I will get up tomorrow is out of a belief that tomorrow will be a better day than today. If I lost that belief, if I felt that tomorrow is going to be a worse day and that there would never again be a day in my life worth anything, I would consider whether I should going on. I believe that the right to life we all have includes with it a right to end that life at a time of our choosing and no society should deny an individual that right.
I tend to agree. (BTW, thanks for the keyring.)

There is a really great story in this episode which almost got sidetracked by the antics of Q. Almost.
You have just summed it up perfectly.
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Old March 30 2009, 05:26 AM   #450
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Deathwish (***)
I would give the episode three stars too. Not my fav, but good.
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