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Old March 28 2009, 10:02 PM   #421
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I remember enjoying 'Dreadnought' even though, like you say, it's nothing special.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The missile is far too advanced compared to Cardassian technology we have seen up until this point, and the fact that B'Elanna spent all this time programming in various probabilities that the missile should know how to react to without Chakotay finding out is completely out there when it comes to suspending disbelief. I'm surprised she didn't program in a probability that the missile would get pulled into the DQ considering everything else she programmed into it.
Agreed. I have thought it might have made more sense if the missile had a somewhat different origin. Even if the Cardassians built it, you mean to tell me they wasted it on the Maquis? What, did it have an expiration date?

I would have enjoyed it more if it had been one of a series of such weapons (perhaps more limited than as was depicted) that the Cardassians had positioned for use against, let's say the Federation, and the Maquis had in turn stolen this one and reprogrammed it for use against the Cardassians. It might have been interesting had the missile been of exotic origin - someone random like the Tholians or something - someone who also hates Our Heroes but has more advanced tech than the Cardassians, and then the Cardassians bought/stole it from them. Hell, make it be Iconian. They seem to be the go-to folks for doomsday tech.

There is some nice stuff towards the end where Janeway evacuates the ship and prepares to sacrifice herself. This helps to make up for how badly she was written in Prototype.
Agreed. I think this is one of the reasons I enjoyed the episode so much - the depiction of Janeway, combined with B'Elanna having to take responsibility for her actions as a Maquis, in particular something she probably thought she'd never hear about again.

They fired at least seven torpedoes in this episode. It seems the rationing is over.
It begins.
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Old March 29 2009, 06:42 AM   #422
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

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They should have just removed Neelix, nearly everybody hated him anyway.

Not everyone. It seems to me that many hate Neelix just because it is commonly accepted to hate him. I have never had any problems with the character. I guess same could be said about Voyager in general as well. It is easy to "hate" it just because other's hate it too.

GodBen wrote: View Post
Dreadnought (**½)

Dreadnought is one of my favs from Season 2. Definitely worth of **** (fours stars) at least.
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Old March 29 2009, 12:40 PM   #423
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
It seems to me that many hate Neelix just because it is commonly accepted to hate him. I have never had any problems with the character. I guess same could be said about Voyager in general as well. It is easy to "hate" it just because other's hate it too.
I like Voyager ok. It's growing on me in spite of the several dull-as-dishwater characters. Tuvok, Doc, Belanna and Tom both being imperfect, are all good. Neelix, though - ouch! Partly it is the actor's oily voice.
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Old March 29 2009, 02:06 PM   #424
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Dull characters? Oh wow. We must watch two different shows.
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Old March 29 2009, 03:00 PM   #425
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'm having some difficulty with one of Godben's criteria, in that he deducts amounts if the episode "could" have been done on Next Generation. It doesn't matter "if it could" have been done on Next Generation, it wasn't, Next Generation was over as a series and the episode couldn't have been done anywhere but Voyager. You need to rethink that if you are trying to be fair because it looks like you are building in failure.

An awful lot of the episodes on Next Generation, especially during the first season "could have been done" on the Original Series and in fact two of those episodes "The Child" and "Devil's Due" were actually written for the Original Series relaunch, which didn't come off. In other words they started out as Original Series episodes.

Voyager characters were not dull; the cast had the best chemistry in all of the series. Now you as an individual may not have clicked with certain characters, but that doesn't mean that they didn't click with other people.

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Old March 29 2009, 03:23 PM   #426
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Brit wrote: View Post
I'm having some difficulty with one of GodBen's criteria, in that he deducts amounts if the episode "could" have been done on Next Generation. It doesn't matter "if it could" have been done on Next Generation, it wasn't, Next Generation was over as a series and the episode couldn't have been done anywhere but Voyager. You need to rethink that if you are trying to be fair because it looks like you are building in failure.
TNG and Voyager are two completely different series, there should not be this sort of attitude towards the shows that it is okay if they have the same sort of episodes. Voyager had a very different premise to TNG and Voyager works best when it uses its premise to explore greater issues than TNG ever could.

I wouldn't accept it is an episode of The West Wing felt like The Sopranos or an episode of nuBSG felt like Lost, so I'm not going to accept it if any one episode of Star Trek feels like an episode from one of the other Trek series.

An awful lot of the episodes on Next Generation, especially during the first season "could have been done" on the Original Series and in fact two of those episodes "The Child" and "Devil's Due" were actually written for the Original Series relaunch, which didn't come off. In other words they started out as Original Series episodes.
And that is one of the reasons why I think the first two seasons of TNG are mostly crap. TNG only came into its own in season three when Michael Piller took over the writing staff and started doing stories which focused on the characters rather than the sci-fi. When Voyager does an episode which is character specific, such as an exploration of the Doctor or Torres or whoever, I don't mark it down. If an episode could have been done of TNG with minor alterations then I mark it down.

Voyager characters were not dull; the cast had the best chemistry in all of the series. Now you as an individual may not have clicked with certain characters, but that doesn't mean that they didn't click with other people.
I agree that this cast isn't dull, at least not in the middle of the second season. But I do remember that a lot of the cast get side-tracked later on in favour of the Big Three of Seven, the Doctor and Janeway and when that happened the other main characters did become dull.

In terms of character chemistry I think my list does like this:

1. DS9
2. TOS
3. Voyager
4. TNG (I love the show, but other than Picard and Data the characters were sort of meh.)
5. Enterprise
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Old March 29 2009, 04:25 PM   #427
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Voyager crew had the best chemistry, IMO, hands down. No other crews can touch them. None.
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Old March 29 2009, 04:59 PM   #428
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
Voyager crew had the best chemistry, IMO, hands down. No other crews can touch them. None.
On what do you base that on? I mean, what constitutes chemistry to you? How are the other casts different? Please be specific. I get that things are subjective, but I'm trying to understand your perspective.
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Old March 29 2009, 05:11 PM   #429
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Brit wrote: View Post
I'm having some difficulty with one of Godben's criteria, in that he deducts amounts if the episode "could" have been done on Next Generation. It doesn't matter "if it could" have been done on Next Generation, it wasn't, Next Generation was over as a series and the episode couldn't have been done anywhere but Voyager. You need to rethink that if you are trying to be fair because it looks like you are building in failure.

An awful lot of the episodes on Next Generation, especially during the first season "could have been done" on the Original Series and in fact two of those episodes "The Child" and "Devil's Due" were actually written for the Original Series relaunch, which didn't come off. In other words they started out as Original Series episodes.

Voyager characters were not dull; the cast had the best chemistry in all of the series. Now you as an individual may not have clicked with certain characters, but that doesn't mean that they didn't click with other people.

Brit
Not to speak for GodBen by anymeans but here is my interpretation...

There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager. TNG was about the Federation's flagship casually cruising around the Alpha Quadrant, doing stuff and following Starfleet officers doing exactly what they signed up for. Voyager was about two distinct crews thrown 70,000 light years away from home against their will, alone and with limited resources trying to get home through an unknown part of space (hopefully in less than 75 years).

So what does that mean...any episode of Voyager that is simply about a crew casually exploring space, putting the ship in danger for the sake of studying the nearest nebula or anomaly of the week, and not touching on Voyager's unique circumstances is a TNG lite episode. In essence, it is an episode that is not true to Voyager's distinct premise. For instance, I consider Equinox to be one of Voyager's better efforts. The story is unique and based on an idea that these ships and crews are TOTALLY ALONE and struggling to get home. Its one of the few real episodes that genuinely acknowledges the series potential. Truth be told, I personally would have rather followed the story of the Equinox simply because it looked like they had a much more interesting and harrowing voyage. Year of Hell is another episode that fits Voyager's premise.

Once the show completely abandoned the whole notion of limited resources the last component of the original premise evaporated.
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Old March 29 2009, 05:24 PM   #430
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.
There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.
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Old March 29 2009, 05:47 PM   #431
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.
There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.
Except there are episodes which crop up on Voyager which feel almost exactly like the sort of things they did on TNG. Not every episode by any means, so far I would only regard 20-25% of the episodes as the sort that could easily have been done on TNG, but it does happen and when it happens I will mark it down.
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Old March 29 2009, 05:50 PM   #432
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Tachyon wrote: View Post
There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.
There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.
Except there are episodes which crop up on Voyager which feel almost exactly like the sort of things they did on TNG. Not every episode by any means, so far I would only regard 20-25% of the episodes as the sort that could easily have been done on TNG, but it does happen and when it happens I will mark it down.
You can do whatever you want. This is your review thread.

I'm just saying that all this comparison is getting a little ridiculous and even old. How much similarities were between DS9 and Babylon 5, for instance? And if there were, did that in any way ruin what was in DS9? I seriously doubt it, even if they were two extremely similar settings. But with two different space stations, different commanders, different crews and therefore unique episodes no matter how similar themes they had.
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Old March 29 2009, 05:53 PM   #433
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Tachyon wrote: View Post
Voyager crew had the best chemistry, IMO, hands down. No other crews can touch them. None.
On what do you base that on? I mean, what constitutes chemistry to you? How are the other casts different? Please be specific. I get that things are subjective, but I'm trying to understand your perspective.
We base that on the relationships between the characters. Those of us that are big Voyager fans realized that the show was character driven and not particularly plot driven. Now there is nothing wrong with either way but if you tastes run to plot driven then chances are you don't care for Voyager as much as other shows. Conversely if you like character driven episodes then Voyager was good for you.

DS9 was actually plot driven with its big story arcs, some people loved that. Some of us love Voyager's characters. It's just different tastes.

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Old March 29 2009, 06:03 PM   #434
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Tachyon wrote: View Post
There should have been a distinct difference between the tone and feel of TNG vs Voyager.
There was. Perhaps not for you, but definitely for me. TNG and VOY are different despite both being part of Trek family and both taking place on starships. They were anything but identical. Different crews, different stories, different kind of story arc from season 1 to season 7. Claims of these two being similar are actually quite ridiculous.
Except there are episodes which crop up on Voyager which feel almost exactly like the sort of things they did on TNG. Not every episode by any means, so far I would only regard 20-25% of the episodes as the sort that could easily have been done on TNG, but it does happen and when it happens I will mark it down.
I think Voyager did feel a lot like TNG, especially after season 4. However, I loved the Voyager characters so much more and found the episodes far more entertaining.
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Old March 29 2009, 07:23 PM   #435
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I like TNG and it's characters but I like the Voyager characters and the inter-action between them even more.

I don't think that Voyager was or became a blatant copy of TNG but there were some similarities here and there, especially in the later seasons when I get an impression that those in charge of the show tried to "play safe" in order to get more viewers, sort of "we bring in the Borg because the fans love TNG and the Borg" and "we bring in some TNG characters because the fans love TNG". They were always concerned over the fact that neither Voyager nor DS9 had the same ratings as TNG. But they should have realized that spin-offs seldom get as much viewers as the original (I'm not counting TOS here since it was made so many years before TNG, DS9 and Voyager).
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