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Old March 26 2009, 08:10 PM   #391
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Threshold (0)

No comment.
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Old March 26 2009, 08:14 PM   #392
Praetor
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

'Admiral... there be salamanders here!'
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Old March 26 2009, 08:14 PM   #393
Octavia
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Oh come now. Tom Paris coughing up his tongue has to be worth at least half a star for sheer gross-out value.

As for the rest... well, yes. Half a star is about its limit, but I stick by my belief that Threshold is not the worst Voyager episode out there. Damning with faint praise I know.
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Old March 26 2009, 08:23 PM   #394
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Between this and TNG: Genesis, methinks Brannon Braga should have picked up a textbook on evolutionary biology.

Or better, maybe someone should have beaten him over the head with a textbook.
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Old March 26 2009, 08:25 PM   #395
Octavia
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

He was responsible for Genesis too, was he? Oh dear... I could never bear watching that more than once.
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Old March 26 2009, 08:50 PM   #396
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If you don't take 'everywhere at once' literally, the way Starfleet transwarp drive should work actually makes sense: it's a jump drive, generated by a warp field so energetic that it renders structural components spaghetti-strength.

Til now. Now we have salamanders.
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Old March 26 2009, 08:59 PM   #397
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Prototype" is OK. A good B'Elanna Torres episode which shows that even the best intentions can go wrong sometimes.

I must also state that I do support Janeway in her decision not to allow B'Elanna to help those robots re-produce themselves. They did know too little about that "species" or what to call them to help them with that.

As for the episode, I'll give it 3 out of 5.

"Alliances" is one of my top 20 favorites. Great episode from the beginning to the end where our heroes discover that the enemy's enemy isn't always the best friend either. As I see it, Janeway and the others made the right decision with first trying to ,ake some sort of deal with the Kazon and when it failed, they tired the same with the Trabe, not to mention that they actually tried to make peace between the Kazon and the Trabe. A nice try and a good attempt but some conflicts obviously can't be solved.

The only thing we could have live without was Janeway's speech at the end about "the principles of the Federation". Now that sounded like bad propaganda and wasn't convincing.

Otherwise an excellent episode. I'll give it 5 points out of 5!

"Threshold". Oh dear, what a mess.
One of the worst episodes ever in the history of Star Trek.
But there are some funny moments and the episode is actually watchable if you imagine it as just a nightmare Paris had after eating too much Leola Root stew or drinking too much of Neelix’s coffee. The best evidence for this episode being nothing but a nightmare is the fact that no one ever mentioned the events in the episode in later episodes. I mean, Paris almost dies, turns into a lizard, abducts Janeway who is also turned into a lizard and they have lizard “children” and no one talks about it or jokes about it later!

At least it's better than downright bad and insulting episodes as "The Gift" and "Fury".

But the verdict will be 1 point out of 5.
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Old March 26 2009, 09:03 PM   #398
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Robotech Master wrote: View Post
Between this and TNG: Genesis, methinks Brannon Braga should have picked up a textbook on evolutionary biology.

Or better, maybe someone should have beaten him over the head with a textbook.
Octavia wrote: View Post
He was responsible for Genesis too, was he? Oh dear... I could never bear watching that more than once.
i look at this one as having very little difference than "genesis" and yet it gets more derision. now, i understand the biology problems since i am heavily involved with the sciences. but, unlike "genesis" there was a character-building moment for one of the characters.

btw, i'm just wondering where trek fans draw the line in suspending belief for many of the scientific (pseudo-scientific?) topics that are presented from physics to chemistry to biology? it's seems very haphazard.
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Old March 26 2009, 09:51 PM   #399
Robotech Master
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I can suspend belief if the material presented is somewhat plausible OR if the writers do not intentionally focus attention on the technobabble explanations.

If there are some good character moments or good dramatic moments, then I can forgive some scientific implausibility as long as the writers know it is implausible and keep the explanations to themselves.

Genesis and Threshold were not interesting stories, therefore the bad science becomes even more noticable.

On the other hand, TNG's The Chase also had some halfbaked pseudo-science but it was good character episode for Picard.

However, I didn't think it was necessary for the writers to try and rationalize why all the aliens in Star Trek are humanoid. Most intelligent viewers understand that this just a TV show and obviously every species they meet can't look like a Horta or an 8472.

For me personally, I notice the pseudo-biology more than the pseudo-chemistry/physics/engineering because that is part of my training and background.
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Old March 26 2009, 10:38 PM   #400
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

blitz wrote: View Post
i look at this one as having very little difference than "genesis" and yet it gets more derision. now, i understand the biology problems since i am heavily involved with the sciences. but, unlike "genesis" there was a character-building moment for one of the characters.

btw, i'm just wondering where trek fans draw the line in suspending belief for many of the scientific (pseudo-scientific?) topics that are presented from physics to chemistry to biology? it's seems very haphazard.
Threshold is worse because it insinuates that humans will evolve into giant salamanders. At least Genesis says that the characers DEVOLVED into various preevolutionary states (though it still doesn't explain Barclay becoming a spider...). I think people felt insulted by both the idea and the idea that the writers thought people would BUY the idea.
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Old March 26 2009, 10:58 PM   #401
Octavia
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

blitz wrote: View Post
btw, i'm just wondering where trek fans draw the line in suspending belief for many of the scientific (pseudo-scientific?) topics that are presented from physics to chemistry to biology? it's seems very haphazard.
For me the evolution mistakes are worse, primarily because there's so much trouble getting people to understand and accept evolution in real life. Bad enough to believe in Bible Genesis - worse to watch Trek Genesis and come away with an even dumber idea of what evolution really is about.
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Old March 26 2009, 11:21 PM   #402
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

My biggest problem with Threshold isn't the salamander thing - as ridiculous as that is - it's the absurdity of Tom Paris developing such a propulsion system when the best minds in the Federation could not. Of course this was beaten later in Vis a Vis when Tom is able to repair an advanced alien warp drive - thanks to his knowledge of carburetors! I always thought that episode could easily be written off as a Tom Paris holo-novel and maybe the same case could be made for this abomination.
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Old March 26 2009, 11:57 PM   #403
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
I'm not suggesting they throw their principles out the window; I'm just suggesting they take a sharpie and a highlighter to the rulebook and figure out exactly where they all stand. It's something that should have happened at the very beginning of the series. This was a good opportunity to fix not having done that.
Agreed. I don't want Janeway to turn into the evil Janeway seen in Living Witness, but an acknowledgement that the rule book doesn't apply out in the DQ would have been welcome. Alliances was a good episode which ended with completely the wrong message.

Robotech Master wrote: View Post
I agree with most of your reviews thus far, GodBen. By the way, did you use to run a Transformers site? Or am I thinking of someone else?
I can barely manage a thread, I'd fail miserably if I tried to run a whole website. I am normally called either GodBen or TheGodBen on websites, but I am not the GodBen you are looking for.

Octavia wrote: View Post
Oh come now. Tom Paris coughing up his tongue has to be worth at least half a star for sheer gross-out value.
I'll be honest, I did consider that, but in the end I found this episode so insulting to my intelligence that I just couldn't give it any points. If I go to a restaurant where the food is horrible, I have to wait 2 hours for the food and the waiter spits on me at every opportunity, I cannot recommend it because the hand-dryer in the men's room worked well.

Lynx wrote: View Post
At least it's better than downright bad and insulting episodes as "The Gift" and "Fury".
I know you like Kes and all, but while those episodes may have been bad for her character, Threshold was audio-visual diarrhoea. For me it is the worst episode of Star Trek ever made.

blitz wrote: View Post
i look at this one as having very little difference than "genesis" and yet it gets more derision. now, i understand the biology problems since i am heavily involved with the sciences. but, unlike "genesis" there was a character-building moment for one of the characters.
Genesis was really bad, and the science was almost as bad as Threshold, but the story that episode told was at least slightly interesting. Picard and Data being chased on a dark ship is better than Tom in sickbay doing really gross things. I'd give it 1 star.

Octavia wrote: View Post
For me the evolution mistakes are worse, primarily because there's so much trouble getting people to understand and accept evolution in real life. Bad enough to believe in Bible Genesis - worse to watch Trek Genesis and come away with an even dumber idea of what evolution really is about.
This is my big problem too. Evolution is not difficult to understand when explained correctly and the idea that an educated person working on a science fiction series could so completely fuck it up is unbelievable.
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Old March 27 2009, 01:10 AM   #404
apenpaap
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

How can you give Threshold 0 stars? It deserves much, much less. There is a very funny recap of the episode on The Agony Booth, btw: here.
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Old March 27 2009, 01:51 AM   #405
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

apenpaap wrote: View Post
How can you give Threshold 0 stars? It deserves much, much less. There is a very funny recap of the episode on The Agony Booth, btw: here.
I considered giving it minus five stars, but that would have messed up the graph when I get to the season recap. Zero will just have to do.
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