RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,851
Posts: 5,474,287
Members: 25,042
Currently online: 469
Newest member: MarieWeather

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Covenant
By: Michelle on Nov 22

Two Official Starships Collection Previews
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Saldana: Women Issues In Hollywood
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Shatner Book Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Nov 20

Trek Original Series Slippers
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Hemsworth Is Sexiest Man Alive
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Trek Business Card Cases
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

February IDW Publishing Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

Retro Review: The Siege of AR-558
By: Michelle on Nov 15

Trevco Full Bleed Uniform T-Shirts
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 26 2009, 12:21 AM   #376
J47
Commander
 
Location: Montreal
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Resistance (****)
Quite possibly my favourite episode of the series; certainly the best the show offered up in the first two seasons IMO. Like you said, it just works. All of the elements work together to create a great plot with one heck of an emotional kick.
J47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 12:33 AM   #377
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: The mockingjay soars
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Lynx wrote: View Post
Since we are discussing season 1 episodes....

I watched "Emanations" and "Prime Factors" on Sunday and discovered a blooper in"Emanations".

When they are inside the cave on that asteroid and Torres suddenly spots a dead body, you can clearly see the "dead body" moving its head slightly. Then Torres says: "It's a humanoid, it is dead".

Obviously not!
There is a similar goof in TNG's "Heart of Glory." After Konmel is killed during the escape, the actor's head very clearly moves when Yar arrives.
__________________

"If you think you're brave enough to walk the path of honor, then follow me into the dragon's den."


Knight Exemplar
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 01:41 AM   #378
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Octavia wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
Prototype (*½)

"Unfortunately extinction is often the natural end of evolution." - Captain Kathryn Janeway

Firstly, I don't know if this is true. It shouldn't be because evolution via natural selection logically causes a species to adapt away from extinction and extinction is caused by a change in the environment rather than internal evolution.
It is true. Evolution doesn't cause a species to adapt away from extinction, it is a random process in which the surviving adaptations better fit the individual to survive in a particular environment, thus preserving the genes in question.

Also, you're not considering the effects of competition on extinction. Or what happens if natural selection doesn't naturally select fast enough. And it's possible that species can become extinct due to internal evolution: for example, a virus that mutates in a way that kills off the host before the virus can be spread to another carrier.
But that's not the process of natural selection which is driving them towards extinction, that is variation of individuals within the population. The variation of individuals within the species can have negative aspects which lead to death, but the process of natural selection should "weed out" the negative variations so that the species as a whole moves into a state more fitting of its environment.

Take the Irish Elk which evolved very large antlers. A current theory for their extinction is that their antlers required a lot of calcium and when the climate changed at the end of the most recent ice age their food supply didn't contain the calcium they needed to support their antlers and they died from nutrient stress. On the one hand evolution did cause them to grow the antlers which killed them, but they probably would have continued existing had the environment not changed.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 02:02 AM   #379
Octavia
Fleet Captain
 
Location: New Zealand
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Octavia wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
Prototype (*½)

"Unfortunately extinction is often the natural end of evolution." - Captain Kathryn Janeway

Firstly, I don't know if this is true. It shouldn't be because evolution via natural selection logically causes a species to adapt away from extinction and extinction is caused by a change in the environment rather than internal evolution.
It is true. Evolution doesn't cause a species to adapt away from extinction, it is a random process in which the surviving adaptations better fit the individual to survive in a particular environment, thus preserving the genes in question.

Also, you're not considering the effects of competition on extinction. Or what happens if natural selection doesn't naturally select fast enough. And it's possible that species can become extinct due to internal evolution: for example, a virus that mutates in a way that kills off the host before the virus can be spread to another carrier.
But that's not the process of natural selection which is driving them towards extinction, that is variation of individuals within the population. The variation of individuals within the species can have negative aspects which lead to death, but the process of natural selection should "weed out" the negative variations so that the species as a whole moves into a state more fitting of its environment.

Take the Irish Elk which evolved very large antlers. A current theory for their extinction is that their antlers required a lot of calcium and when the climate changed at the end of the most recent ice age their food supply didn't contain the calcium they needed to support their antlers and they died from nutrient stress. On the one hand evolution did cause them to grow the antlers which killed them, but they probably would have continued existing had the environment not changed.
But a species, through mutation, can evolve in any way: good, bad, or indifferent (no real change). Given that, the natural end point of many evolutionary paths is extinction, simply because if a species evolves in one way, it's not evolving in another.

Your example of the Irish Elk is a case in point. According to the theory you describe, it went down an evolutionary path which needed high amounts of calcium to sustain. That means, as a species, it effectively evolved itself into extinction when that calcium wasn't available (although that is a big simplification). Had the Elk not evolved such big antlers, it might have survived the nutrient stress of the Ice Age (assuming, of course, that it had survived the state of not-having-big-antlers).

After all, other species survived the Ice Age intact, so environmental change isn't the be all and end all of extinction. It's how the individual/species exploits that change that is key.

Evolution is generally a trade-off. If a characteristic evolves there is usually a knock-on effect on some sort, or an opportunity cost. Yes, you can say Elks died out because the environment changed, but I think it's equally accurate to say that they couldn't survive that change because they'd hit an evolutionary dead end given the circumstances, and there wasn't sufficient time for random mutation and/or natural selection -> species evolution to remedy that.

Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, but they're not the same thing, I think. Natural selection weeds out the individuals that don't respond as successfully to the environment, but evolution is more than selection (e.g. genetic drift). Natural selection may help the pre-Ice Age Elk with the biggest horns reproduce the most successfully, but evolution means the Ice Age Elks, as a species, are not equipped to handle a low-calcium environment.

Those individual Elks who could get along on a bit less calcium than the rest would have survived longer (natural selection). But had the species as a whole evolved to a point where no Elk could survive a low availability of calcium, then natural selection is a bust, because there isn't anything to select from.

Edit: and this is a cool discussion! Thanks.

Last edited by Octavia; March 26 2009 at 02:14 AM.
Octavia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 02:34 AM   #380
kimc
Coffee Mod
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Resistance" is one of my favorite episodes.
__________________
I'm certainly less inclined to bash Voyager now, it is not nearly as bad a show as many people make it out to be. - TheGodBen

Avatar by B'Elanna.
kimc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 02:50 AM   #381
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Octavia wrote: View Post
Edit: and this is a cool discussion! Thanks.
Yeah, I love debating evolution. I try to hide just how little I really know about it.

I suppose it is possible for a species to evolve into extinction. Environment is a critical component of evolution and I can't just claim that environment is that only thing which leads to extinction. The extinction of an entire species is, in a sense, a brutal form of natural selection since some animals will have evolved themselves into such a niche that they were unable to adapt out of quickly enough. As Darwin said, “It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

I should reach Threshold by tomorrow, so I guess I can save the "they don't understand the evolutions!" rant until then.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 03:23 AM   #382
brcarthey
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Richmond, VA...for now
Send a message via AIM to brcarthey Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to brcarthey
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Octavia wrote: View Post
Edit: and this is a cool discussion! Thanks.
Yeah, I love debating evolution. I try to hide just how little I really know about it.

I suppose it is possible for a species to evolve into extinction. Environment is a critical component of evolution and I can't just claim that environment is that only thing which leads to extinction. The extinction of an entire species is, in a sense, a brutal form of natural selection since some animals will have evolved themselves into such a niche that they were unable to adapt out of quickly enough. As Darwin said, “It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

I should reach Threshold by tomorrow, so I guess I can save the "they don't understand the evolutions!" rant until then.
the classic example of an animal evolving itself into extinction is the woolly mammoth.

btw, i know you're going to roast "threshold," but i hope you'll at least give some separate consideration to what i thought was some decent character insight into paris. it's not one of my favorite b/c of the evolution part of it, but everything before the gecko scenes seemed okay. oh yeah, i know you'll also be having a problem with the warp 10 threshold and how easily it was conquered by paris, kim, and torres. well, i'll look forward to reading it so we can discuss a couple of things about it tomorrow.
__________________
'Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither' - Benjamin Franklin.
'Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism.' - Huey Long
brcarthey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 05:25 AM   #383
Tachyon
Fleet Captain
 
Tachyon's Avatar
 
Location: Finland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Prototype (*½)
Oh no you didn't!

Technobabble? I must have missed that. The thought of it never even crossed my mind while watching this.

This episode was good. At least worth of ***½.
Tachyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 02:23 PM   #384
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
Technobabble? I must have missed that. The thought of it never even crossed my mind while watching this.
Well there was about three minutes of Torres talking to the Doc about plasma and how to make the ship's plasma work for the robot, then there is a two minute scene where they go ahead and do it. The most exciting part of the episode, the bit where Voyager is being pounded by the Praelor ship, is also filled with Kim and Tuvok shouting "Shields at 47%!" "Auxiliary power is offline" and other such phrases.

The only good technobabble is technobabble which references flux capacitors. That is a well known rule of science fiction.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 04:51 PM   #385
Tachyon
Fleet Captain
 
Tachyon's Avatar
 
Location: Finland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Not my rule.

The dialog you mentioned was fine. Nothing wrong with that.

So let's move along.
Tachyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 05:15 PM   #386
brcarthey
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Richmond, VA...for now
Send a message via AIM to brcarthey Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to brcarthey
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

i don't understand why sci-fi fans have a problem with technobabble. while much of it is BS, there is quite a lot of it that is grounded in sound physics theory. i love it that they try to give some explanation and not just say, "that thing is busted and i need something to fix it."
__________________
'Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither' - Benjamin Franklin.
'Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism.' - Huey Long
brcarthey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 06:05 PM   #387
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

blitz wrote: View Post
i don't understand why sci-fi fans have a problem with technobabble. while much of it is BS, there is quite a lot of it that is grounded in sound physics theory. i love it that they try to give some explanation and not just say, "that thing is busted and i need something to fix it."
Okay, read this:

EMH: Ah yes, the mechanical man. Kes told me about it. Fascinating.
TORRES: He's about to die.
EMH: Die?
TORRES: Die, stop functioning, whatever, unless I can figure out a way to sustain his main energy source.
EMH: What kind of energy source are we talking about?
TORRES: It's some sort of chromo-dynamic module powered by a tri-polymer plasma, but the plasma is contaminated. It's decaying.
EMH: Hmm. Like diseased blood.
TORRES: Right. It can't retain enough energy to keep the module running.
EMH: Have you considered a transfusion?
TORRES: You mean replacing the plasma itself? Well that was one of my first ideas, but where do I get my hands on a polymer plasma composed of elements I didn't even know existed twenty four hours ago?
EMH: Aren't Voyager's engines powered by warp plasma?
TORRES: It's a very different substance. Too highly charged. It would burn out the robot's systems in seconds. It would be like trying to give a Bolian a blood transfusion from a Vulcan.
EMH: Which ordinarily would kill the unfortunate Bolian, but there have been instances when artificial blood was unavailable and existing blood cells were genetically altered for inter-species transfusions.
TORRES: It's a good idea, but warp plasma radiates at too high a frequency to alter electro-chemically. Unless.
EMH: Go on.
TORRES: I could modify a series of anodyne relays, attach them directly to the robots power module. They could act as a sort of regulator to make the warp plasma compatible with the robot's energy matrix!
EMH: That's exactly what I was going to suggest.
That took up two minutes on screen. It is nonsense for the most part, if I tried to follow these instructions I would not be able to build myself a robot. It has no dramatic purpose, it is there to fill time. The next scene:

TORRES: That's the last of the relays.
KIM: Plasma injector is sealed.
JANEWAY: This is your show, Lieutenant. Whenever you're ready.
TORRES: Activating the relays. All right Harry, start the infusion. Twenty percent nominal flow.
KIM: Initiating plasma flow.
TORRES: Energy levels are up fourteen percent.
JANEWAY: The relays are holding.
TORRES: Harry, give it a little more juice.
KIM: Got it. I'm taking it to thirty percent. Thirty-five percent.
TORRES: Wait, the energy levels are rising too fast. We're going to burn out it's systems.
KIM: But it needs more plasma.
JANEWAY: What about increasing the capacitance of the relays?
TORRES: Let's give it a try. It's stabilising. Hold the flow right there. Let's see what happens. The plasma is circulating. The programming centre is activated. I think we may have done it.
Why not just have B'Elanna perform the procedure and have it work? Why waste time telling me that energy levels are building up too quickly and they need to increase the capacitance? It was another minute and a half of wasted screen time which should have been used to do something more interesting about B'Elanna and why she feels the need to reactivate the robot. We could have had a nice scene where she realises that she feels a bit like a doctor and that she wants to help out an injured patient, instead we had time wasted on technobabble.

Technobabble is fine in small doses, excessive technobabble is toxic to my patience.


Alliances (***½)

This episode suffers one major problem; it tried to do too much in just one episode. In one episode Voyager is beaten to hell by the Kazon, unrest amongst the crew grows, Janeway decides to make an alliance with the Kazon, they meet with Cullah to no avail, Neelix gets captured by the Kazon, he meets the Trabe, he escapes with the Trabe, we learn all about the Trabe, we learn all about the Kazon's past, Janeway decides to ally with the Trabe, the Trabe decide to hold a peace conference, Cullah decides to use the peace conference to somehow take control of all the Kazon, the Trabe attack the conference to kill the Kazon leadership, Voyager finds herself in a worse situation than at the beginning of the episode.

There is a lot of plot here and much of it is very important. This is the back-story to the Kazon which we have needed since the show began but the whole episode feels so rushed that we can't absorb it correctly. This really should have been spread out into a two part episode because the story is good enough to deserve more time. Things have to move very quickly by the end of the episode, and the speed at which Seska convinces Cullah to go to the conference makes Cullah look like a simple-minded fool.

What I like about this episode is that it finally starts to use the potential of this show's premise. Voyager is in real danger, the Maquis begin to dispute Janeway's decision making, Janeway has to start being less obtuse when it comes to the Prime Directive. This is all good stuff and it makes for a very good first act. I also like how they end the show with Voyager fleeing for their lives and how they are discussing how far they will be able to get without restocking on essential supplies. This is a very exciting ending that could only have been made better if it hadn't felt so rushed.

Then Janeway makes a speech. Oh boy.

Janeway got completely the wrong message from the events in this episode, at least in my opinion. She says that these events shows how they must stick to their principles at all costs, but the fact is that she didn't really abandon her principles at all and now the ship finds itself in greater danger. I'm not saying that she should have given a speech about how they are going to abandon their principles, I'm saying that there shouldn't have been a speech at all because the speech we got didn't seem to gel with what happened in this episode at all.

A good episode overall, I just wish it had taken more time and not tacked on that speech to the end.

Torpedo counter: 4/38
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 06:07 PM   #388
StarryEyed
Commodore
 
StarryEyed's Avatar
 
Location: Florida Keys
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I've agreed with GodBen for most of this thread but I'm with Tachyon and blitz on Prototype. I would give it ***1/2.
StarryEyed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 07:38 PM   #389
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Alliances (***½)

This episode suffers one major problem; it tried to do too much in just one episode.

There is a lot of plot here and much of it is very important. This is the back-story to the Kazon which we have needed since the show began but the whole episode feels so rushed that we can't absorb it correctly. This really should have been spread out into a two part episode because the story is good enough to deserve more time.

What I like about this episode is that it finally starts to use the potential of this show's premise. Voyager is in real danger, the Maquis begin to dispute Janeway's decision making, Janeway has to start being less obtuse when it comes to the Prime Directive. This is all good stuff and it makes for a very good first act.
I agree with all of this. It was like they crammed what could have even been a good half-season's worth of plot into one episode.

Janeway got completely the wrong message from the events in this episode, at least in my opinion. She says that these events shows how they must stick to their principles at all costs, but the fact is that she didn't really abandon her principles at all and now the ship finds itself in greater danger. I'm not saying that she should have given a speech about how they are going to abandon their principles, I'm saying that there shouldn't have been a speech at all because the speech we got didn't seem to gel with what happened in this episode at all.
I agree. That speech was just... weird. Another annoying thing to me was that the idea was that the Maquis 'joined' Voyager as a Starfleet crew, yet the Starfleet crew that were already there didn't seem willing to bend even just a little to learn anything from the Maquis, or even really listen to them and give their opinions consideration. It's happened before in the series, and it happens a good few times more and, IMHO, makes Our Heroes seem rather closed minded.

I'm not suggesting they throw their principles out the window; I'm just suggesting they take a sharpie and a highlighter to the rulebook and figure out exactly where they all stand. It's something that should have happened at the very beginning of the series. This was a good opportunity to fix not having done that.
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2009, 07:41 PM   #390
Robotech Master
Rear Admiral
 
Robotech Master's Avatar
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Interesting thread!

I was actually thinking of doing something like this one day.

I was also a big Trek fan... until Voyager came along.

I loved the first three Trek shows but this one was so disappointing for me.

I gave up on the show sometime during the 5th season of the original run.

Later, I went back and watched the episodes I missed, but the show actually seemed worse than in the earlier seasons.

It is too bad because it had a great premise and it seemed to have some interesting characters back in the first season. And it always had excellent production values.

But along the way the characters just got on my nerves and the show itself became TNG Phase II.

But I may give it another shot when I have some time. Even though the series as a whole disappointed me, there were some great individual episodes.

I agree with most of your reviews thus far, GodBen. By the way, did you use to run a Transformers site? Or am I thinking of someone else?
Robotech Master is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:03 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.