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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 24 2009, 07:36 PM   #16
Thor Damar
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

^ Absolutely, and consider the affect upon Damar when the question "What kind of a State would tolerate this" was thrown back at him.
Garak has said( in a Sitch in time) that Cardassians always learn to live with their guilt and to accept it. The problem is that for centuries the Cardassian people have lived under a system and a ideology that goes againist their inbuilt spirituality. I think that this poisonous legacy would cause a lot of mental strife for most Cardassians.
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Old March 25 2009, 01:21 AM   #17
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

DeafPoet wrote: View Post
I think that's what makes it such a cool episode. It never sat right with me that they were just going to let Garak off the hook.

What bothered me was in Garak's dialogue with Sisko he says something to the effect that "We've saved the Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the lives of a criminal and a Romulan Senator, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer."

Yeah, screw those totally innocent bodyguards you mentioned just ten minutes earlier.
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Old March 25 2009, 02:02 AM   #18
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

^ No one ever stops to think about the henchmen do they?
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Old March 25 2009, 02:24 AM   #19
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
^ Absolutely, and consider the affect upon Damar when the question "What kind of a State would tolerate this" was thrown back at him.
Garak has said( in a Sitch in time) that Cardassians always learn to live with their guilt and to accept it. The problem is that for centuries the Cardassian people have lived under a system and a ideology that goes againist their inbuilt spirituality. I think that this poisonous legacy would cause a lot of mental strife for most Cardassians.
Very well put.
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Old March 25 2009, 04:06 AM   #20
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
^ No one ever stops to think about the henchmen do they?
I like to think of them as Vreenak's Nos. 21 and 24.
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Old March 26 2009, 03:46 AM   #21
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

Myasishchev wrote: View Post

What bothered me was in Garak's dialogue with Sisko he says something to the effect that "We've saved the Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the lives of a criminal and a Romulan Senator, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer."

Yeah, screw those totally innocent bodyguards you mentioned just ten minutes earlier.
Hey, if the senator died under their watch then they weren't very good body guards then, were they?
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Old March 26 2009, 03:38 PM   #22
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

Or Garak was just that good an assassin...
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Old March 26 2009, 07:45 PM   #23
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

Praetor wrote: View Post
Or Garak was just that good an assassin...

That is most likely to be the truth of the matter. The Obsidian Order and its agents never fail... well, except for that one time but no-one wants to talk about that
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Old March 26 2009, 08:08 PM   #24
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

I always wondered if he didn't have some personal cloaking device for sneaking aboard to plant the bomb.
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Old March 26 2009, 08:29 PM   #25
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

Hmm... Cardassians try to perfect the art of blending in. People will see you, but won't notice you...
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Old March 26 2009, 08:54 PM   #26
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

Until it's TOO LATE!

*ack*
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Old March 28 2009, 05:05 AM   #27
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

MeanJoePhaser wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post

What bothered me was in Garak's dialogue with Sisko he says something to the effect that "We've saved the Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the lives of a criminal and a Romulan Senator, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer."

Yeah, screw those totally innocent bodyguards you mentioned just ten minutes earlier.
Hey, if the senator died under their watch then they weren't very good body guards then, were they?
Indeed. Romulan politics would probably have called for the guards' execution if they had survived. Vreenak's death means they failed, therefore, Romulus would demand that they die as well.
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Old March 28 2009, 06:17 PM   #28
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
MeanJoePhaser wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post

What bothered me was in Garak's dialogue with Sisko he says something to the effect that "We've saved the Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the lives of a criminal and a Romulan Senator, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer."

Yeah, screw those totally innocent bodyguards you mentioned just ten minutes earlier.
Hey, if the senator died under their watch then they weren't very good body guards then, were they?
Indeed. Romulan politics would probably have called for the guards' execution if they had survived. Vreenak's death means they failed, therefore, Romulus would demand that they die as well.
In the 23rd century, the guards would have probably killed themselves, seppuku style. In the 24th century, they would probably have been killed by someone else. Subtle, but noteworthy, difference.
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Old March 28 2009, 10:35 PM   #29
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

I remember my reaction after watching this episode for the first time: would Garak really be comfortable back on DS9 after having killed Starfleet personnel? Regardless of the circumstances, something like that does not go unnoticed by folks.

I have to assume that Sisko covered Garak's role up, in order to preserve a valuable future ally and save him from any retaliation among Starfleeters. I know they're supposed to be "evolved," but nobody's that evolved. There would be at least the risk of retaliation.

So doesn't this mean that Garak - being a Cardassian - already hates humans and secretly wants to kill them?
Sure, but that doesn't mean that in his right mind, he will act on those impulses. Garak's violent nature is what made him valuable to Sisko as the guy who can do the dirty work, and gave Sisko a motive to cover for him.
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Old March 29 2009, 06:09 PM   #30
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Re: Empok Nor: Is Garak guilty of murder?

It's already been mentioned, but involuntary intoxication is an affirmative defense to any crime regardless of the mental element. Heck, in Canada, iirc, it's a defense to crimes of intent. Especially considering that the Empok Nor drug was designed to induce violence, I think it'd be easy enough for most to forgive Garak.

Now, O'Brien probably harbored some ill will, but then again this isn't the first time he's faced mind-control. Garak's situation on Empok Nor is analogous to that of his own wife in The Assignment. Beyond that, we've got the many times he's been around various types and degrees of mind-control already in his professional life: the Conspiracy parasites, Geordi "My VISOR is a Liability" LaForge, the takeover of Data's body for Starfleet-contrary purposes on at least three occasions...

It's likely that a lot of Starfleet personnel have either face mind-control techniques directly or have heard about it, so Garak getting hopped up on crazy gas and going on a killing spree is probably par for the course in this service.
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