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Old March 24 2009, 01:35 PM   #61
IndyJones
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Sci wrote: View Post
LaxScrutiny wrote: View Post
You've never seen a cute, petite, leather clad female beating up a big man on a Whedon show? Two really hot young femme girls in bed together?
I have, and I don't think he ever did that for sexual or pornographic intent.
Don't most all of the regular vamp fighting characters wear leather?
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Old March 24 2009, 01:59 PM   #62
Anwar
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Well, Buffy rarely wore a revealing outfit while fighting vamps. She fought more practically like in the overcoat and stuff. Kendra and Faith wore more revealing clothes, but in Faith's case it was intentional.
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Old March 25 2009, 09:28 AM   #63
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Sci wrote: View Post
LaxScrutiny wrote: View Post
You've never seen a cute, petite, leather clad female beating up a big man on a Whedon show? Two really hot young femme girls in bed together?
I have, and I don't think he ever did that for sexual or pornographic intent.
It's a far too commonly recurring theme for it to be a coincidence. He has created four shows and gotten them on the air, each one has had multiple characters of the same type - Buffy, Faith, Cordelia, River, Echo etc.

The last season of Buffy had a hundred of them!
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Old March 25 2009, 05:53 PM   #64
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

^And Faith and Echo even look a lot alike!
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Old March 25 2009, 07:32 PM   #65
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Forbin wrote: View Post
^And Faith and Echo even look a lot alike!
I hadn't noticed.
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Old March 25 2009, 08:48 PM   #66
Sci
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Hermiod wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
LaxScrutiny wrote: View Post
You've never seen a cute, petite, leather clad female beating up a big man on a Whedon show? Two really hot young femme girls in bed together?
I have, and I don't think he ever did that for sexual or pornographic intent.
It's a far too commonly recurring theme for it to be a coincidence. He has created four shows and gotten them on the air, each one has had multiple characters of the same type - Buffy, Faith, Cordelia, River, Echo etc.

The last season of Buffy had a hundred of them!
I wouldn't attribute it to coincidence. Whedon obviously has a feminist angle he's working -- female empowerment as represented in the action-adventure genre through the use of female characters defeating villains.

I'm not sure I'd call Cordelia a character in the same tradition as Buffy, River, or Echo, though.
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Old March 25 2009, 08:52 PM   #67
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

^Unfortunately he pushes that angle way too hard. I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I realised while watching the last episode of Buffy that the whole point of the episode was that "evil men" were holding back the "true power of women everywhere".
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Old March 25 2009, 09:06 PM   #68
Sci
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^Unfortunately he pushes that angle way too hard. I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I realised while watching the last episode of Buffy that the whole point of the episode was that "evil men" were holding back the "true power of women everywhere".
I don't think that that was the point of Buffy at all. Whedon's work has never been about condemning men -- if it was, I doubt that he would have made Angel or Firefly. The point of Buffy was to tell the story of how one girl who is gifted with an ability she did not want learns to integrate that gift into her self-construct and therefore become a true adult. Specifically, that meant being willing to accept the power of the Slayer (and it concomitant responsibilities), and to share that power and those responsibilities, as a metaphor for being willing to accept and share adult power and adult responsibility.

Misogyny and sexual oppression were certainly amongst the many evils that Buffy faced in the course of that journey, and they are certainly very real evils in our world, but she also faced corrupt religion (the Master), sadism (Angelus), nihilism (Dark Willow), government corruption (the Mayor and the Initiative), vanity (Glory), and immaturity (Warren). Misogyny (Caleb) may have been the most recent evil she faced in the final season, but it was hardly the defining evil of the show.
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Old March 25 2009, 09:22 PM   #69
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

^I said "episode", not "show".
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Old March 25 2009, 09:33 PM   #70
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^I said "episode", not "show".
I'm not sure if it's fair to say that that was the point of "Chosen," either. But even if it was -- what, exactly, is wrong with doing one episode about the defeat of misogyny in seven seasons' worth of a feminist program?
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Old March 25 2009, 09:53 PM   #71
LaxScrutiny
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

I walk away from Whedon shows feeling like he gets a hard-on daydreaming about really skinny femme chicks getting all empowered after being oppressed by the Patriarchy and kicking ass. Kind of like a black man who goes to a white dominatrix and pays her to act out his slave fetish.

If others don't see it that way, that's cool. We all see what we see in stories.
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Old March 26 2009, 08:11 AM   #72
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Sci wrote: View Post
Hermiod wrote: View Post
^I said "episode", not "show".
I'm not sure if it's fair to say that that was the point of "Chosen," either. But even if it was -- what, exactly, is wrong with doing one episode about the defeat of misogyny in seven seasons' worth of a feminist program?
It was the last episode. The last episode of any show worth a damn, which Buffy certainly was, is too important for such ham-fisted messages.

There's a whole other thread to be written about the way Joss and his writers write their most important male characters - wusses or monsters, most of the time. Wesley and Spike even managed to switch between the two, in opposite directions.

I am currently waiting for it to turn out that Langton beats up his girlfriend or something, he's been written far too much like the true good guy in this show so far.
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Old March 26 2009, 08:59 AM   #73
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Hermiod wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Hermiod wrote: View Post
^I said "episode", not "show".
I'm not sure if it's fair to say that that was the point of "Chosen," either. But even if it was -- what, exactly, is wrong with doing one episode about the defeat of misogyny in seven seasons' worth of a feminist program?
It was the last episode. The last episode of any show worth a damn, which Buffy certainly was, is too important for such ham-fisted messages.

There's a whole other thread to be written about the way Joss and his writers write their most important male characters - wusses or monsters, most of the time. Wesley and Spike even managed to switch between the two, in opposite directions.

I am currently waiting for it to turn out that Langton beats up his girlfriend or something, he's been written far too much like the true good guy in this show so far.
Yes, that's right, Joss Whedon hates men, and all male characters on his show are either monsters or wusses. That's why the characters that came closest to destroying the world, Willow and Glory, were female, and why the character who betrayed Buffy and her friends to try to destroy the world was female -- and why the character who stopped her was male. That's also why Anya was portrayed as a character with a horrific past whose choice to try to go back to that past was an evil choice she'd have to recover from, and that's why sympathetic characters like Riley and Angel (not Angelus) were male.

Because Joss Whedon hates men.



Whedon's characters are complex moral actors with flaws and virtues, and not a one of 'em, male or female, hasn't shifted from monster to hero to wuss at some point or other.
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Old March 26 2009, 09:42 AM   #74
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Sci wrote: View Post
Yes, that's right, Joss Whedon hates men, and all male characters on his show are either monsters or wusses. That's why the characters that came closest to destroying the world, Willow and Glory, were female, and why the character who betrayed Buffy and her friends to try to destroy the world was female -- and why the character who stopped her was male. That's also why Anya was portrayed as a character with a horrific past whose choice to try to go back to that past was an evil choice she'd have to recover from, and that's why sympathetic characters like Riley and Angel (not Angelus) were male.

Because Joss Whedon hates men.



Whedon's characters are complex moral actors with flaws and virtues, and not a one of 'em, male or female, hasn't shifted from monster to hero to wuss at some point or other.
You really want to hold up Riley and Angel as examples of Joss Whedon writing positive male characters ? Riley ? We are talking about the guy who was letting vampires feed off of him behind his girlfriends' back. As for Angel, he freely admitted that having a soul did not make him good or what he did okay. He was Angelus with a conscience, that's it. Good guy Angel allowed a room full of human Wolfram and Hart lawyers to die and tried to murder Wesley in his hospital bed.

The principle difference between the male and female characters, especially in Buffy, is that there was always an excuse when the women did something wrong and very often it's because of something a man did.

Anya was betrayed by a man, Angelus drove Drusilla insane, Willow went insane because Warren murdered Tara, the list goes on and on and on.

Anya murdered a room full of men, that might have been undone afterwards but she still chose to do it. What were the consequences ? She was forgiven almost immediately and accepted back in to the Scooby Gang.

Wesley, on the other hand, was nearly killed while trying to do the right thing because he honestly believed that Connor was in danger and what did he get for it ? Angel tried to kill him and then he was left out in the cold.

I'm not saying Joss hates men, I'm saying he could write his characters a little bit more equally.
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Old March 26 2009, 10:51 AM   #75
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Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Hermiod wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Yes, that's right, Joss Whedon hates men, and all male characters on his show are either monsters or wusses. That's why the characters that came closest to destroying the world, Willow and Glory, were female, and why the character who betrayed Buffy and her friends to try to destroy the world was female -- and why the character who stopped her was male. That's also why Anya was portrayed as a character with a horrific past whose choice to try to go back to that past was an evil choice she'd have to recover from, and that's why sympathetic characters like Riley and Angel (not Angelus) were male.

Because Joss Whedon hates men.



Whedon's characters are complex moral actors with flaws and virtues, and not a one of 'em, male or female, hasn't shifted from monster to hero to wuss at some point or other.
You really want to hold up Riley and Angel as examples of Joss Whedon writing positive male characters ? Riley ? We are talking about the guy who was letting vampires feed off of him behind his girlfriends' back. As for Angel, he freely admitted that having a soul did not make him good or what he did okay. He was Angelus with a conscience, that's it. Good guy Angel allowed a room full of human Wolfram and Hart lawyers to die and tried to murder Wesley in his hospital bed.

The principle difference between the male and female characters, especially in Buffy, is that there was always an excuse when the women did something wrong and very often it's because of something a man did.

Anya was betrayed by a man, Angelus drove Drusilla insane, Willow went insane because Warren murdered Tara, the list goes on and on and on.

Anya murdered a room full of men, that might have been undone afterwards but she still chose to do it. What were the consequences ? She was forgiven almost immediately and accepted back in to the Scooby Gang.

Wesley, on the other hand, was nearly killed while trying to do the right thing because he honestly believed that Connor was in danger and what did he get for it ? Angel tried to kill him and then he was left out in the cold.

I'm not saying Joss hates men, I'm saying he could write his characters a little bit more equally.
What about Giles? I know he has a terrible past, but he's clearly fully on the side of good by the time we meet him, and he never puts a foot wrong, does he? Or Xander - ok, kind of a wuss, but he is surrounded by people with superpowers and he still does his best - barring a couple of unfortunate incidents.
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