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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

View Poll Results: Grade the episode...
Excellent 300 71.94%
Above Average 59 14.15%
Average 20 4.80%
Below Average 19 4.56%
Poor 19 4.56%
Voters: 417. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old March 24 2009, 08:00 PM   #571
Mr Awe
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Re: Was the ending realistic?

middyseafort wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
middyseafort wrote: View Post

Yes, really!
Well, we disagree, to say the least. I'm glad you enjoyed the series. I did overall but obviously have a few more issues over the finale than you.

Mr Awe
I accept that people disagree with the finale, but it was you who insisted on the snark and who seemed to have a "problem" with those who don't come to the same conclusions as you.
Actually, no. I wasn't snarky, I just stated why I disagreed, that the fleet couldn't agree on squat much less something like that. That's the nature of a discussion board.

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Old March 24 2009, 08:11 PM   #572
diankra
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Re: Was the ending realistic?

DeadmeatDiggory wrote: View Post
I don't think that everybody gave up their technology... after all, we have to consider the myth of Atlantis. That being said, I have a feeling that we'll be debating/arguing over this for many more years.
There is an awful long time between 150,000 years ago and the supposed fall of Atlantis (which, if the few ancient Greek accounts of it that are the root of the legend are in any sense accurate, had only happened a few generations ago from their point of view, putting it within the last 3,000 years - assuming it actually happened, of course!).
Colonials keep technology but keep aloof from the natives before something goes wrong circa 500BC is just about credible in SF terms. Colonials abandon technology but are somehow still around 147,500 years later is a bit more of a stretch.
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Old March 24 2009, 08:11 PM   #573
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

I was re-watching it, two things I didn't like. Starbuck and Lee on the assault forces rather than in Vipers. The main thing, a lack of a final Adama/Tigh scene, after all the shit they've gone through together - I hope its in the extended cut.
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Old March 24 2009, 08:24 PM   #574
Ryan Thomas Riddle
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Re: Was the ending realistic?

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
middyseafort wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post

Well, we disagree, to say the least. I'm glad you enjoyed the series. I did overall but obviously have a few more issues over the finale than you.

Mr Awe
I accept that people disagree with the finale, but it was you who insisted on the snark and who seemed to have a "problem" with those who don't come to the same conclusions as you.
Actually, no. I wasn't snarky, I just stated why I disagreed, that the fleet couldn't agree on squat much less something like that. That's the nature of a discussion board.

Mr Awe
Actually, yes.

You first post in response to something I posted was snarky:


Mr Awe wrote: View Post
EMPHASIS MINE
middyseafort wrote: View Post
What's "realistic" in a fictional story? Certainly, BSG was naturalistic but it was hardly realistic from its premise.

The ending is certainly naturalistic and plausible within context of the fictional world of BSG, the hardships endured by the characters and the surviving "society."

It worked for me.
Really?! A fleet that was ready to mutiny at any time. A fleet that had no consensus on pretty much anything. Suddenly you're willing to believe that they'll give up their technology?!

Dude, if you'll buy that, I've got this bridge for sale . . . [licks chops]

Mr Awe
Now that was snarky.

To which I further responded with my long analysis of why I found the ending naturalistic and plausible, then you responded saying that "we disagree..."That I am more than fine with but you started off snarky in the above post. You didn't start off telling me why you disagree instead you posed a question that was meant to be confrontational rather than debatable, especially in your choice of multiple punctuation (?!).

You weren't trying to debate or discuss your point in that instance. You were being confrontational in your approach, railroading rather than engaging. You were being obstinate and smart assed, especially with the "afterthought" of having a metaphorical bridge to sell.
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Last edited by Ryan Thomas Riddle; March 24 2009 at 08:37 PM.
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Old March 24 2009, 08:50 PM   #575
Mr Awe
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Re: Was the ending realistic?

^^^ Yawn, if you say so.

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Old March 24 2009, 10:18 PM   #576
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
A "doesn't like to be called that"-damned travesty.

I voted below average only for the hour and twenty minutes before it went from awesome to suck in the time it took for Earth to rise over the moon.

I cannot believe people are buying this.

The good

Bitchin' space battle.

Aaron Doral gets a line! Seriously, I thought he'd been downgraded to extra pay.

The Opera House thing was done well.

However temporarily, Caprica and Baltar seeing their virtual twins was sweet.

The bad

Flashbacks of pointless if sometimes faintly (very faintly) interesting crap. Lee needs to learn to close his windows.

Athena shooting Boomer. Yeah, this is purely personal taste, but I wanted Boomer to live or at least go out a martyr--not executed without trial, not put down like a damned dog. Athena: murderer.

Tyrol gets a downgrade from poor decisionmaker to complete retard, surpassing his fuckup from a few weeks ago with a fuck up that dooms two civilizations to extinction. You couldn't have waited five minutes to kill her--you know, until the genocide was averted? And no one even gets mad at him for it? Tyrol: manslaughterer. And an idiot.

Unfortunately, an end to the cycle of violence was thrown away when Tyrol between Cavil-Cylons and the Humans and Rebel-Cylons was thrown away by Tyrol's inability to control himself. Dean Stockwell, as always, was great. I wanted Cavil to get his wish. He just wanted to grow and to evolve. It's not his fault he's trapped with the emotional capabilities of a precocious but disturbed child and in the filthy body of a human being. Cavil: suicide? (That was weird.)

Now, on to the Cylon home-colony, which is apparently many hundreds of cubic kilometers in volume and possibly larger... and it's broken into bits by the nukes from one Raptor? And if it really is that easy, why didn't the Rebel Cylons do it a year ago? Racetrack: perpetrator of genocide.

The Ugly

The "angels" turn out to be angels.

"God" turns out to be God.

The visions turn out to be visions.

Hera turns out to be a... little girl?

And Starbuck turns out to not be real. Despite the fact she's able to kill people and shoot Centurions and...

and...

Now let's hold it right here. A figment of everyone's imagination shot people during the mutiny, shot Centurions on the Cylon colony, can lift stuff... now there's a reason solipsism isn't really viable as a concept. The reason is that in when what you see and what reality is don't match up, you die. If I try to walk down a flight of stairs and all I see is a level floor, I fall down each step and break my neck on the bottom. If I am in a firefight, and the person next to me is not real, and I am only taking it on faith that what she is killing is actually dead, I am going to be perforated the first time I turn my back on a corpse that is actually alive.

But I guess in BSG fake bullets make real holes, because they're the will of God. Too bad God, who can interact physically with the real world, thought it would be awesome to watch billions die. Great guy, God.

So, after they destroy civilization, it turns out All Along the Watchtower is... coordinates. For Earth. Sent by...

Right, sent by God.

And the ending? I mean, the establishment of the humans on Earth... with the humans of Earth... I liked it better when it was called Restaurant at the End of the Universe but that's because that book was a Goddamn comedy and not a pretentious science fiction drama too full of itself to answer its own questions.

Real answers, not answers that boil down to "because it is" (or rather, because "I am because I am").

And finally, and this is where I was truly lost here, because everything else I might have stomached:

Lee Adama, the snake in the garden of Eden. But this time, the snake says "Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, it's not good for you."

Here's a man who thinks it's a good idea to not build a city, to abandon technology, to start humanity afresh... and that we know for a fact, because it is our Earth, consigns hundreds of billions of human progeny to squalor, misery, pestilence, and holocaust. Lee Adama creates Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Lee Adama has the opportunity to build Heaven and casts the human race and all its children into a Hell that they'll dig themselves out of only in time to build its first Cylons... and they won't know that their days are numbered if they make the mistake of treating them as slaves, because Lee Adama in his infinite fucking wisdom destroyed history.

And thirty thousand people go along with this? Really?

Let's jut leave aside the fact of how this is different from New Caprica... I guess every basestar in the Cylon fleet has been destroyed... because God willed it or something.

Whatever.

This finale, I'm truly--truly--sorry to say it, sucked. It is the BSG finale we might have expected if Ronald Moore had said, "I'm out of ideas"--and handed it to Brannon Braga. You know, I take that back.

It's insulting to Brannon Braga.
I'm gonna venture to say....you didn't get it.

"It's about the characters" This was a great resolution and I'm glad they didn't cater to nitpicks and action freaks (take your "pound of flesh" with the spectacular sfx). The characters finally "lay down their burdens" and "take a break from all their worries" I completely agree that 99.95 percent of the survivors would accept this "clean slate"

*Sorry to everyone for quoting someone's super long rant.
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Old March 25 2009, 12:15 AM   #577
Ethros
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Just watched it tonight on Sky 1. I'm not gonna try and read 20 pages of this thread, and knowing this forum I really couldn't care to read others criticisms of it. Especially when I click on the voting poll and see its always the same folk who vote "poor", and the first name that pops up is someone who openly admitted to having only ever seen about 10 mins of the entire show in a previous thread, and yet still seems to think they are worthy of a drive-by trolling.

So all I really have to say about this episode after watching it is...

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Old March 25 2009, 12:29 AM   #578
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

Ethros wrote: View Post

"Party on, Bill!"

"Party on, Saul!"
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Old March 25 2009, 01:00 AM   #579
Ethros
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

^ They're air guitaring to "All Along The Watchtower" too



btw, in skimming through these threads, one thing I think fans who are asking "why this, why that, what about him, what about her" etc should remember is that the finale will be extended by a fair bit on DVD. So there may still be extra resolutions and loose ends tied up then
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Old March 25 2009, 01:26 AM   #580
Thor Damar
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

I was gonna say more, but for now I'll only say this; sheer perfection.
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Old March 25 2009, 01:26 AM   #581
Noname Given
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Re: Was the ending realistic?

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Mankind did survive and hadn't developed more Cylons, so far.
Well, in another fictional universe; we DID create Skynet and I think most know how THAT went...
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Old March 25 2009, 01:47 AM   #582
Ethros
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Re: Was the ending realistic?

Thinking about the ending a bit now, I feel really sad for Lee, all alone at the end. As one of my favourite characters I really hope he went on to have a good life and met someone special
I'm actually welling up thinking about it as I write this


I'll also add some more points & thoughts from the episode to my previous "excellent"

* Admiral Hoshi- best thing ever

* President Lampkin- second best thing ever

* I though Helo had kicked it after he was shot, so I was delighted to see he's survived at the end. Despite some, I always liked the guy

* Loved the Boomer flashback, I found that really emotional

* Cavil's death was just brilliant. "Frak!", still has me laughing my head off now

* I liked the "trick" of what seemed like there was gonna be a peaceful solution to the conflict with Cavil, and then Tyrol has to go and totally frak it up! Nice to see some revenge for Cally though

* The opera house flashbacks to what we'd seen way back in Kobol's Last Gleaming and Crossroads was awesome-o

* NuBSG Centaurians kicking the shit out of TOS style models

* Kara's goodbye to Sam, and Adama & Roslin in the Raptor had me weeping manly tears I have to say

* Baltar survived! Hurrah!
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Old March 25 2009, 01:50 AM   #583
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Re: Was the ending realistic?

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
Gregsmack wrote: View Post
That's the mistake. To break the cycle, you don't want a clean slate. That just keeps the cycle going. What you want to do is to learn from your mistakes, keep your history, but do things differently. That will break the cycle.
They are doing things differently. They are doing things completely differently. Clean slate does not = the memory wipe of 38,000 people. If anything, technology would have scarred them for life.

Whether they died or not is irrelevant?!
Yes. Who cares whether or not they died? They would have died in the fleet or on Earth regardless. The screen has faded to black already. Speculating about what happened is only speculation. Maybe they all made a really good go of it for a while. All that matters in this fiction is the choice that they made. This endless argument about technology/no technology is completely absurd.
We'll have to agree to disagree but I strongly disagree on both points. A clean slate is not the solution and it didn't work. And, I do care about these characters!

Mr Awe
I'll agree to disagree. I have no problems and no hard feelings.

But I do have to ask why you think a clean slate is not the right solution. I don't understand your reasoning whatsoever. Is there some precedent here you're referring to that the Colonials are tragically repeating? How did not it work? What didn't work? Obviously if NYC exists, there hasn't been another AI holocaust in 150,000 years -- a way better margin than the 2000 year intervals they had going there.
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Old March 25 2009, 01:54 AM   #584
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Re: Was the ending realistic?

middyseafort wrote: View Post
They mutinied and bickered over equipment because, at the time, there was no hope, no planet to settle, and the prospect of spending their entire lives in those flying tin cans. Before that they had some hope and it was shattered by the discovery of Cylon Earth. Their dreams were torn asunder.

Moreover, the series has showed us that the Colonials have clung onto their lives Before the Fall. A few examples: establishing a Quorum; adhering to Colonial military traditions and laws; the jobs they held before the attacks, like the gardners and such on Cloud Nine; presidential elections and the presidency; Colonial designations such as Caprica, Tauron, etc.; and the hierarchy of that society.

And in the background, growing over the four years, this idea that things must change or "all of this has happened and will happen again." For example: Zarek's ideas from the first season on how society has to be redefined and how it was impossible to maintain that lifestyle (he may have been an egotistical ass with delusions of martyrdom but he had a point); Lee's speech at Baltar's trial; the outlaw of abortion; the dangers of vocational inheritance in "Dirty Hands"; and Lee's notion that a new Quorum should be ship-based representation not colony-based.

Because of these examples that I've listed, I do believe that the Colonials once they had planetfall, and particularly this Eden, would be perfectly willing to abandon that which overly complicated their lives and destroyed their civilization. And that there would be a final epiphany... of letting go of their previous lives... the death of the Colonial way of life. And as in Baltar's speech to Cavil, stop the cycle at birth -- in this case, rebirth.

Granted, we didn't get the interstitial conversations and debates that no doubt took place between Lee's proposal in "Daybreak, II" and the acceptance by the fleet. Then again, it wasn't important to moving the story to show that. That it happened was the only thing that needed to be shown from a writerly stand-point, imao.

Excellent post. You've articulated it better than any other poster here that I've seen.
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Old March 25 2009, 01:55 AM   #585
Samuel T. Cogley
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Re: Battlestar Galactica Series Finale: "Daybreak, Part II"

It's amazing how top-heavy the review poll is, considering how terrible and full of holes the finale was.
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