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Old March 23 2009, 03:31 PM   #331
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
So there shouldn't have been any space anomalies in the DQ just because there was such things in AQ?
No, that's not what I said. But if they are going to encounter a space anomaly then there should be an a or b story which is character specific. For example, the plot of Heroes and Demons could have been done on TNG, but the character moments revolving around the Doctor prevented me from deducting marks from that episode. Ex Post Facto had a mark taken off because they could easily have done that episode on TNG if they replaced Tom with Riker. When they do an episode where the plot and characters could easily have been adapted to work on TNG then they get a mark taken off.
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Old March 23 2009, 04:13 PM   #332
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
If Voyager is just going to encounter aliens and anomalies of the week then what is the point of basing it in the DQ? Just bring the ship back to the AQ and have them go up against fan favourites such as the Romulans or Klingons. And if Ron Moore is to be believed then they were actually considering doing that during the later seasons.
i've heard and read a lot of rumors concerning the direction of voyager, but this is the first i've heard of that rumor, that they were thinking of bringing voyager back to the AQ/BQ to deal with romulans and klingons during the later seasons. can you elaborate?

So if a story revolves around them finding some new aliens or a weird space anomaly then I will mark it down by half a star for failing to use the premise or characters of this series. If it is an episode which could only happen on Voyager either because they are lost in the DQ or it is character-specific then I wont.
does this same sort of grading system get retroactively applied to TNG or DS9? or do they escape that scrutiny b/c they came first? while you're right in that sometimes it can be disappointing when episode premises can be non-series specific, each series only got 7 years on the schedule and therefore not every story could be told. decisions had to be made. then there's also afterthought. thinking of a story for a crew but the time for that storytelling had passed.

so, it seems that your finger may be on the scale in grading voyager that it might not be otherwise for the other series. again, i understand what you're saying about not liking series-specifc premises, but if you downgrade voyager b/c of that then shouldn't that same rule be applied retroactively to the other series in regards to voyager? it's not like characters will all have unique experiences that can only be applied to them and no one else.

i'm pretty sure you won't agree, but i still wanted to hear your thoughts.
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Old March 23 2009, 07:43 PM   #333
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I don't think there's much I can add to what GodBen said because (surprise) I basically agree. There are a couple of things I want to address.

This is is how I view episodes that could have been done on TNG or DS9:
GodBen wrote: View Post
Tachyon wrote: View Post
So there shouldn't have been any space anomalies in the DQ just because there was such things in AQ?
No, that's not what I said. But if they are going to encounter a space anomaly then there should be an a or b story which is character specific. For example, the plot of Heroes and Demons could have been done on TNG, but the character moments revolving around the Doctor prevented me from deducting marks from that episode. Ex Post Facto had a mark taken off because they could easily have done that episode on TNG if they replaced Tom with Riker. When they do an episode where the plot and characters could easily have been adapted to work on TNG then they get a mark taken off.
Like he said, they spent all that time and effort developing a spinoff that had a different environment and premise and should have had a more careful script 'sieve' to try to weed out the stuff that felt like retread and keep them dramatically on course.

blitz wrote: View Post
so, it seems that your finger may be on the scale in grading voyager that it might not be otherwise for the other series. again, i understand what you're saying about not liking series-specifc premises, but if you downgrade voyager b/c of that then shouldn't that same rule be applied retroactively to the other series in regards to voyager? it's not like characters will all have unique experiences that can only be applied to them and no one else.
Personally, I judge TOS and TNG separately. TOS is just that - the original. The beginning. It pretty well fulfilled its premise and didn't have to differentiate itself from anything other than what else was on television at the time. Similarly, TNG was just what it said it was, a 'sequel' set in a new century with a new crew. Its premise was largely the same and therefore it did similar (and sometimes sequel) stories.

DS9 and VGR are both spinoffs however - technically DS9 is a spinoff of TNG, and VGR a spinoff of DS9 but I see both latter series as spinoffs of TNG since they are both set in the TNG 'era.' Both DS9 and VGR had unique premises that purposefully set them in a unique circumstance - DS9 to a lesser degree (a dirty environment on the frontier, plus the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant) and VGR to a greater degree (a ship stranded in a wholly unknown area of space, crewed by two distinct groups forced to cooperate to survive.)

In that regard, I personally do find a DS9 episode that could have been done on TNG a disappointment. (These are primarily found in the first three seasons, but a few slip through later on, too.) But I find a VGR episode that could have been done on TNG even more of a disappointment because they went to the extreme that they did to devleop an even more distinct series premise than DS9.

I might even argue that 'Enterprise' was initially at least a TNG spinoff and not a TOS prequel, but I won't go there now.
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Old March 23 2009, 07:48 PM   #334
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

each series only got 7 years on the schedule and therefore not every story could be told.
ONLY seven years?

Yes it's true that not every story can be told but they don't even tell the stories that come out of the premise!

* The crew conflict disappears pretty quickly and everyone becomes a Star fleet drones beyond some lip-service to the idea of the Marquis

* The ship is showroom fresh at the start of the series and at the end

* Anomaly of the week is fine in the AQ but in the DQ, I keep waiting for the crew to shout *fuck the anomaly, I want to go home, why do we keep stopping for this shit?"

and on and on and on...

Voyager simply has no emotional truth to me, as the years went on and the characters failed to developed to their situation, it became a complete waste of time. Harry Kim is the same putz in the last episode as he is in the first one.
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Old March 23 2009, 08:57 PM   #335
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

blitz wrote: View Post
i've heard and read a lot of rumors concerning the direction of voyager, but this is the first i've heard of that rumor, that they were thinking of bringing voyager back to the AQ/BQ to deal with romulans and klingons during the later seasons. can you elaborate?
It was something Ron Moore said in his long rant after leaving Voyager, if I remember correctly. I can't find the interview now since the website it was originally on no longer exists and I can't find the mirror of it which was posted in the BSG forum some months back. What he said was that he had discussions with some of the writers on Voyager where they were suggesting that the ship should arrive back in the AQ and turn the show into a TNG style show, but he told them how he felt that it was a bad idea since it would be like admitting defeat. Clearly he didn't have much of an impact on the direction of the show and the show's producers made the decision to stay in the DQ without his influence, but there was some discussion on the matter.

does this same sort of grading system get retroactively applied to TNG or DS9?
Yes. I already said that I disliked TNG's first two seasons because they were trying too much to be like TOS and TNG only came into its own when they started focusing more on character based stories. DS9 was poor in its first season because it was trying to be like TNG with episodic stories that could easily have been done on TNG. It started moving away from those in season 2 and by the end of the show there was only a handful of episodes which could have been done on TNG.


Parturition (**½)

Story: Tom and Neelix crash on a planet and are forced to get past their hatred of one another in order to raise a baby puppet. Co-starring Tom Selleck.

When an episode has that as an outline it deserves some credit if it manage not to completely suck, and this episode managed not to completely suck. In fact most of this episode works until they find their way into the same cave that every planet in the history of Star Trek has.

One thing in this episode which bothers me is Janeway who sends Tom and Neelix on a potentially dangerous mission together even though she knows they are getting into fights with one another. She just says "solve it" in a slightly sadistic tone of voice. She made a potentially dangerous situation worse with little regard for her crew, the least she should have done was send Chakotay along with them to make sure their bickering doesn't get out of hand.

Lets not talk about the puppet and how reptiles are cold-blooded and therefore should not shiver.

There is some good character work done with Paris and Neelix, although I do wish that they just parted company at the end rather than Neelix inviting Tom around for a little al-key-hol. When another man is in love with your girlfriend you shouldn't force him to spend time around her, it will just be awkward for all involved.

There was a food crisis in this episode which wasn't resolved so if the next episode doesn't mention that fact and resolve the issue then it will lose half a star for bad continuity.

Shuttle crashes: 3
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Old March 24 2009, 01:07 AM   #336
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Persistence of Vision (***)

Another tale of two episodes here. The first half is pretty dull due to Janeway's visions about some stupid holonovel, the second half where the crew falls victim to the alien is pretty fun.

About Janeway's holodeck program... one of my favourite novels is The Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro, and I once sat through that Pride and Prejudice film in order to get laid (Result!) and this holonovel of Janeway's just comes across as a really bad parody on those sorts of stories. I don't want to see more of it, so as it begins to break out into the real world it just annoys me.

Then they come across the alien and he begins taking over the ship until Kes saves the day. This is fun and we get to see some really interesting fantasies... except for Tom's. My only problem here is that Kes and the Doctor somehow know how to operate a warp core; that would be like trying to get me to perform an emergency budget for a South American nation I know nothing about with help from Carrot Top.

Once you get past the holonovel bits this is a fun little episode. Half a star detracted due to no mention of the food crisis they had in the previous episode.
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Old March 24 2009, 01:31 AM   #337
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Revisits Voyager

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
* Anomaly of the week is fine in the AQ but in the DQ, I keep waiting for the crew to shout *fuck the anomaly, I want to go home, why do we keep stopping for this shit?"

as the years went on ...it became a complete waste of time. Harry Kim is the same putz in the last episode as he is in the first one.
ROFL.
really enjoyed that. I never thought of it that way. Janeway the scientist...again...geez!
Yeah Harry Kim's character development was pretty small for a 7 year series. He got screen time but the writers just did not develop him. He has a nice friendship with Tom Paris that's about it. Not on the level of respect like Kirk/Bones

I came up with about 5 types of shows Voyager had.

*problem on Voyager within the crew
*anomaly of the week. the closest thing to TOS episodes
*Borg/Species 8472 ongoing enemy battles.
*salvaging/taking dilithium crystals or whatever they needed to go another so many miles.
*holodeck episodes (total fantasy episodes unrelated to anything BUT character development far from science) Although I loved the black and white 'The Adventures of Captain Proton' holonovel. Janeway as Queen Arachnia was memorable.

I watched all 7 season broadcasts but was happy when it ended THAT it ended.
I purchased The Borg fan collective DVD and that has episodes from 3 series and while I do enjoy those Voyager episodes there were some other Voyager episodes with the Borg I would like to see again. I only watched Voyager during initial broadcast and never again.
I remember more sinister Borg episodes with actually even scarier Borg from Voyager episodes.
Maybe I'll search around this subforum for all the good Borg episodes (excluding the ones on The Borg fan collective). If someone can point me to the thread or post(s) would be most helpful.
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Old March 24 2009, 02:32 AM   #338
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Re: Revisits Voyager

Agreed with both those rankings and evaluations for the record, Godben. I don't even have anything to add this time.
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Old March 24 2009, 03:07 AM   #339
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I would rate "Parturition" lower. I personally don't think it works at all.

"Perisistence of Vision" is slightly better. I think you got the rating right. It's very average, and that's not bad.
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Old March 24 2009, 03:14 AM   #340
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
each series only got 7 years on the schedule and therefore not every story could be told.
ONLY seven years?

Yes it's true that not every story can be told but they don't even tell the stories that come out of the premise!

* The crew conflict disappears pretty quickly and everyone becomes a Star fleet drones beyond some lip-service to the idea of the Marquis

* The ship is showroom fresh at the start of the series and at the end

* Anomaly of the week is fine in the AQ but in the DQ, I keep waiting for the crew to shout *fuck the anomaly, I want to go home, why do we keep stopping for this shit?"

and on and on and on...

Voyager simply has no emotional truth to me, as the years went on and the characters failed to developed to their situation, it became a complete waste of time. Harry Kim is the same putz in the last episode as he is in the first one.
I agree with almost everything you say here.
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Old March 24 2009, 03:53 AM   #341
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

[quote=JoeZhang;2746367]
each series only got 7 years on the schedule and therefore not every story could be told.
ONLY seven years?[\quote]yeah and when you have 9 cast members and ~22 episodes a season. i'll let you do the math on how many episodes you can concentrate on for character building when you also have to mix in action and other problems the crew might face. granted there were A & B plots most of the time, but not always and even then you weren't guaranteed a equal distribution among the cast members for the b-plot.


* The crew conflict disappears pretty quickly and everyone becomes a Star fleet drones beyond some lip-service to the idea of the Marquis
so, basically your logic is saying that if you were one of the maquis who made up (at most) one-third of the crew you'd constantly be trying to piss off the person who's in charge of getting you home? it's that highly inconceivable that they might just want to "go along to get along" so that they might get home...alive and/or not being confined to the brig. no, no that's okay you maintain that rebel attitude you got 70,000 ly from home.
* The ship is showroom fresh at the start of the series and at the end
well, they did have industrial replicators, there were mentions throughout the show about needing new supplies or running low on current reserves. not to mention they were able to trade with various species. could the ship have shown a little more damage? maybe. but, i'm sure you'd have been here bitching that the show was too depressing b/c the ship was always looking so fucked up.

* Anomaly of the week is fine in the AQ but in the DQ, I keep waiting for the crew to shout *fuck the anomaly, I want to go home, why do we keep stopping for this shit?"
remind me what the motto of star trek has basically been for the past 40 years? i guess you might have forgotten if all you watch is some guy bitching about being a possible god for seven years.

Voyager simply has no emotional truth to me, as the years went on and the characters failed to developed to their situation, it became a complete waste of time. Harry Kim is the same putz in the last episode as he is in the first one.
i guess all the metaphors and symbolism is lost on someone like you. however, i will concede to you that both the harry and chakotay characters did not grow much. but, as for the rest, well, that's your opinion and you can't argue with opinion no matter what the facts are.
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Old March 24 2009, 05:30 AM   #342
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

yeah and when you have 9 cast members and ~22 episodes a season. i'll let you do the math on how many episodes you can concentrate on for character building when you also have to mix in action and other problems the crew might face. granted there were A & B plots most of the time, but not always and even then you weren't guaranteed a equal distribution among the cast members for the b-plot.
BSG has a much bigger cast than any of the Trek shows, amd accomplished an insane amount of character development for almost all of them in a mere 70-some odd episodes.

Not to try to start a BSG/Voyager comparison argument but you're argument that ~150 episodes just isn't enough for 9 cast members is kind of proven wrong by the example of BSG.
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Old March 24 2009, 05:44 AM   #343
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

WeAreTheBorg wrote: View Post
BSG has a much bigger cast than any of the Trek shows, amd accomplished an insane amount of character development for almost all of them in a mere 70-some odd episodes.
Agreed.
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Old March 24 2009, 06:29 AM   #344
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
WeAreTheBorg wrote: View Post
BSG has a much bigger cast than any of the Trek shows, amd accomplished an insane amount of character development for almost all of them in a mere 70-some odd episodes.
Agreed.
Agreed as well.
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Old March 24 2009, 06:30 AM   #345
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

blitz wrote: View Post
yeah and when you have 9 cast members and ~22 episodes a season. i'll let you do the math on how many episodes you can concentrate on for character building when you also have to mix in action and other problems the crew might face. granted there were A & B plots most of the time, but not always and even then you weren't guaranteed a equal distribution among the cast members for the b-plot.
DS9, running co-currently with Voyager for five of those seven years, managed to develop its almost all of its main cast (Jake recieving the least amount of focus as the series went on) as well as a number of recurring characters. We're not asking for equal distribution of development as much as ANY development - again I say that there are multiple characters on Voyager that feel unchanged from Cartaker to Endgame.

so, basically your logic is saying that if you were one of the maquis who made up (at most) one-third of the crew you'd constantly be trying to piss off the person who's in charge of getting you home? it's that highly inconceivable that they might just want to "go along to get along" so that they might get home...alive and/or not being confined to the brig. no, no that's okay you maintain that rebel attitude you got 70,000 ly from home.
well, they did have industrial replicators, there were mentions throughout the show about needing new supplies or running low on current reserves. not to mention they were able to trade with various species. could the ship have shown a little more damage? maybe. but, i'm sure you'd have been here bitching that the show was too depressing b/c the ship was always looking so fucked up.
The Maquis were supposed to generate character conflicts, because the Maquis didn't just draw from ex-Starfleet but also people a lot more willing to pick up a gun than put it down. In fact, the character conflict was specifically said to be the reason for the Maquis background for these characters, so that they weren't as squeaky-clean, happy and chummy as the TNG crew was. So seeing them fall into that so quickly, becoming bosom buddies with Starfleet officers and adhering to the rules and regs of Starfleet is a bad sign. B'Elanna herself LEFT Starfleet Academy because of 'personality conflicts,' yet by the second season, she could have been just another Starfleet engineer.

You mention trading with various species. There's minor haggling on various planets, but never for major transactions like repairing the multiple deck explosion and the damage done to the ship in episodes like 'Deadlock' and 'The Killing Game.' Yes, it gets handwaved away by saying that time passed between episodes and they patched things together in that time, but that's just the thing - we HAVE to handwave it away. I don't think we'd be here complaining about the ship's appearance - a number of us are saying that the ship SHOULD have a patched together appearance because it WOULD be patched together, held together with the twenty-fourth century equivilants of duct tape and chewing gum and the factory fresh appearance it had in every episode's start was not realistic.
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