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Old March 22 2009, 06:54 AM   #316
Tachyon
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

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Old March 22 2009, 06:52 PM   #317
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

We try.
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Old March 22 2009, 08:15 PM   #318
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Twisted (**)

You may remember the other day when I said that it doesn't matter if an episode makes huge scientific and logical flaws if it is entertaining. Well half of this episode follows that rule and the other half does not.

The first half where the crew is getting lost and unable to make their way to the bridge is fun and I found myself really liking the cast interactions because they did some cast pairing which we haven't seen much of up til now; Harry and the Doctor, Tom and B'Elanna, Chakotay and Neelix. Fun is had by all.

Then Janeway falls into the tunnel of stretching and everything begins to fall apart. Once the episode stops being fun I started asking more logical questions. Why did Tuvok leave a red-shirt in charge of the bridge in the middle of a crisis? If the ship is twisting how come rooms are moving about with no evidence of twisting? How come the holodeck wont shut off? What does Kes see in Neelix?

Then there is that scene where they all stand there waiting for the wobbly wall to hit them, and some of that dialogue was painful. However nothing can be as bad as the final scene on the bridge where Janeway says "Maybe it was just trying to say hello". That physically hurt my brain.

Another episode which could have been done on TNG.
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Old March 22 2009, 08:44 PM   #319
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I remember being very bored by this episode, except for the character moments you mention. It really was a TNG 2.0 plot. The episode might have been much better had the whole point of the 'anomaly' (episode) actually been the character development between the unusual pairings, then the thin plot wouldn't have been so noticeable.

VGR seems to be having this problem a lot so far - thinking that a boring plot device is actually an entertaining plot, whereas the entertaining part is what happens to the crew because of it.

And yes, Kate tried her damnedest with that line, and yet, it was still a bad line.
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Old March 22 2009, 08:46 PM   #320
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Twisted (**)

Another episode which could have been done on TNG.
My feelings exactly. It's not unwatchable. But it's not good.

And it's one of those episodes that could have taken place on Next Gen, and while that's not a bad thing per say, sometimes episodes of Trek feel very generic, and I respect them more when they embrace their own identity; when they can only be set on whichever series is telling the story. It's those kinds of stories that...justify (to a certain extent) the series that they're told on. Or maybe that's just me?
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Old March 22 2009, 09:11 PM   #321
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The idea of the ship reshaping itself did interest me, even if it was something which could have happened on TNG, the problem is that they claim the ship is being twisted even though that is clearly not what is happening. It is fun to have the crew trying to find their way around on their own ship and it did feel like something we hadn't seen in Trek before, but after the novelty of that wore off the episode just fell flat. I gave the first half a good score, the second half a bad score and then I took half a star away like I do to all episodes which could have happened on TNG.
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Old March 23 2009, 06:10 AM   #322
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

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Twisted (**)

Another episode which could have been done on TNG.
So?

Both shows are taking place on a star ship in space. Similar themes were inevitable. TNG had already ended, so this story took place on Voyager. Simple as that.

Twisted is alright for me too. Could have been better true, but alright as the way it were. I would have given it ** or **½.
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Old March 23 2009, 06:26 AM   #323
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen takes away half a star if it could have been done on TNG.

I tend to agree with him (ad naseum, as you know ) because to me the whole point of 'Voyager' was to exploit the clever premise, which actually was doing something other than just another show on a starship exploring, as well as allowing them to create a new 'world' to play in without rebooting the franchise.
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Old March 23 2009, 06:59 AM   #324
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I have to agree about the idea of taking away points for being a story told just as easily on TNG - it's like I said about how Phage should have been placed as the first non-pilot episode, since that episode and the Viidians' plight on the whole could only be told in Voyager and in the Delta Quadrant. The idea of being in an alien environment, with no familiar faces, and aliens who have to survive through piracy in various forms (technological or organs) is a goldmine, but instead, Voyager has a heavy emphasis on creating various technobabble plots, and... for what reason? If they did it to isolate the crew into uncommon pairings, then they should be upfront about that. If it's to grant a character a new focus both on themselves and their overall existence, fine - pick a character and go with it. But between this ring (and by the way - a ring? So, Voyager, a starship in 3-D space is surrounded by a 2-D ring? Something's wrong here...) and the various other 'subspace phenomena' or whatever (Chaotic space, the whatever that brought in the 'beings from the fifth dimension', among others), it feels like the setting of the Delta Quadrant is really just there to give the old product a new label.
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Old March 23 2009, 07:12 AM   #325
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
It feels like the setting of the Delta Quadrant is really just there to give the old product a new label.
Exactly, and for me it only gets worse as the show goes on. The only thing that's 'different' is that the familiar faces aren't there, but many of the situations remain. (And don't get me started on how this applies to 'Enterprise.' *shudder*)

And the technobabble, ye gods, the technobabble!

I'm still a 'Voyager' fan, believe it or not. I love the show. It just could have been SO much better!
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Old March 23 2009, 07:41 AM   #326
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well, "this could have been TNG episode" kind of thinking has never been an issue for me. TNG is TNG and Voyager is Voyager. There are a lot of similarities, but a lot of differences too.
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Old March 23 2009, 08:40 AM   #327
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Twisted" is a good episode.

A little weird but exciting and entertaining in a way.

Not to mention that the birthday of Our Favorite Ocampa is celebrated in the episode!

I'll give it 4 points out of 5.

OK, it could have been a TNG episode but so what? It could have been a TOS episode as well, or a DS9 episode too.

Nothing wrong with it as a Voyager episode.

However, I have to agree with Praetor about Voyager, that it could have been so much better than it was.
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Old March 23 2009, 03:03 PM   #328
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

True. And how unique was Gamma Quadrant compared to Alpha or Delta Quadrants. Many Gamma Quadrant episodes could have also been TNG or VOY episodes, not to mention all the talks about the similarities between DS9 and Babylon 5. The point is that there is only so much originality in each series. All has been already done in one way or another before nowadays.
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Old March 23 2009, 03:05 PM   #329
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'll explain my stance on the Voyager/TNG issue.

A lot of planning went into Voyager's premise and it was a complicated one. The Maquis were pretty much invented so that Voyager's crew could be more argumentative and that involved cross planning between the writing departments on TNG and DS9. So much planning went into the premise of this show that it forced storylines onto other Trek series, and DS9 in particular was left having to deal with the Maquis when they were already planning to introduce the Dominion. TNG's penultimate episode was dedicated to the Maquis. What did Voyager do with all of this planning? A half-dozen episodes about the Maquis and then hardly a mention about them again.

It is unfair to the other Trek series to use them as set-up for a new show when the new show is barely even going to utilise it.

Voyager had a very good premise, probably the best of all the Trek series, and every hour they spent not using that premise to do new and interesting things is an hour wasted in my view. I judge DS9 in the exact same way, I don't like that first season when they were trying to emulate the style of TNG and much prefer it once they started to use the premise correctly in the second year. I feel the same way about how TNG's first and second seasons were trying to copy TOS rather than be its own show.

If Voyager is just going to encounter aliens and anomalies of the week then what is the point of basing it in the DQ? Just bring the ship back to the AQ and have them go up against fan favourites such as the Romulans or Klingons. And if Ron Moore is to be believed then they were actually considering doing that during the later seasons.

So if a story revolves around them finding some new aliens or a weird space anomaly then I will mark it down by half a star for failing to use the premise or characters of this series. If it is an episode which could only happen on Voyager either because they are lost in the DQ or it is character-specific then I wont. If they find a space anomaly or some-such while there is a b-story which is character specific then it will also get a pass (this is how Elogium escaped getting zero stars, because Kes's story was character specific).
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Old March 23 2009, 03:09 PM   #330
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
If Voyager is just going to encounter aliens and anomalies of the week then what is the point of basing it in the DQ?
Because there were also other things in the series that did make it unique. And their journey home and isolation from Federation did not change just because they encountered some space anomalies. So there shouldn't have been any space anomalies in the DQ just because there was such things in AQ? In addition, some space anomalies may have been unique for DQ. And since Voyager is Trek, why wouldn't there been space anomalies in DQ kind of episodes?

I am a fan of "space anomaly of the week" kind of episodes, so I did enjoy them no matter what quadrant was in question.
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