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Old March 21 2009, 11:57 AM   #16
Klaitu
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

I am a firm believer that the statment refers to the amount of battle damage that the Enterprise had sustained. I don't think that a Miranda class can "outgun" a Constitution class, though perhaps "outrun" might be an option since the ship is smaller. There really is no canon reference, so anything is just speculation.
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Old March 21 2009, 04:18 PM   #17
Cary L. Brown
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

Praetor wrote: View Post
For a long time, I've thought this line by Spock in 'TWoK' referring to the Reliant overwhelming the Enterprise spoke almost exclusively to the fact that the Enterprise was heavily damaged.

However, if you think about it, a Miranda class vessel might indeed be faster and better armed than a Constitution on an even playing field.

The Miranda's mass would appear to be considerably lower yet she at least outwardly possesses largely the same engine equipment. One might argue that her powerplant could have been less potent, but then again she also appears to have two deflection crystals to the Connie's one, so the contrary might be arguable.

Miranda also has two forward torpedo tubes and two aft torpedo tubes to Enterprise's visible two forward tubes, as well as the two rollbar phaser cannons which some call 'megaphasers' but for all we know don't pack that much of a punch. Miranda does, however, omit the ventral and above-shuttlebay single phasers that the Connie is equipped with.

Further complicating the matter, perhaps, is that in Kirk's surprise prefix number attack earlier in the film, he seemed to score a pretty good hit near one of those deflection crystals, possible somewhat equalizing the situation? Saavik's and Spock's lines indicating that 'visual won't function, and shields will be useless' making the odds even are interesting too. Would a lack of targeting and shields really render the damaged Enterprise an even match for Reliant?

I would argue that this may indeed mean Reliant was damaged comparably to Enterprise, if not as severely,and that all of this when taken as a whole indicates that the Miranda class might indeed outrun and outgun a Constitution under nominal circumstances.

What say you?
I think that the "Miranda" (nee "Avenger") design was less capable, overall, then the Constitution-refit (nee "Enterprise") class design. But "less capable overall" doesn't mean "less capable in all areas."

The Heavy Cruiser was designed to be the "jack of all trades" ship... a science vessel, a cargo carrier, an explorer, a warship, a travelling diplomatic mission. And it was very good at all of the above. But, inevitably, a ship specifically designed to serve in a particular function will always be more effective at that particular role than any "jack of all trades" design possibly could.

The Reliant was really designed primarily as a warship, it seems. Shorter range, far less cargo capacity, no big honking "main deflector." Probably less power output, overall, but less tonnage to carry around as well, so potentially a slight edge in "power output versus power consumption."

The trick with the Reliant is that it had basic sensors, but no specialized sensors like you'd expect on a science vessel (like the underslung pod carried by the Grissom). So why use it for the role it was performing in TWOK?

Simple... the Federation Counsel knew how dangerous "Genesis" could be, so they assigned a powerful warship to support the job.

As for "outgunning," that's obvious... the Reliant had the same number of Primary-hull dual emplacements, lost the handful of single-turret emplacements on the secondary hull but replaced them with direct, in-line-with-main-power heavy phaser cannon, and added an additional aft-firing torpedo. More weapons, overall, and potentially heavier ones to boot (The location and configuration of the torpedo pod on the Reliant has always inferred, to me at least, that it might have been firing heavier torpedos than Enterprise was, too.)

As for outrunning... the total mass of the Reliant was significantly less than that of the Enterprise (based upon assumptions of constant density - note that the ship has lower volume)... and the impulse engines were significantly larger. (Anyone who's ever built a Reliant model knows this.) So, at sublight, it makes a ton of sense that the Reliant could outrun the Enterprise. For the two reasons above, it would be able to accelerate much faster - which is what we see in the film, of course.

Now, as for WARP speed... I'd be surprised if the Enterprise couldn't have run circles around Reliant. And for range... the Reliant would have to turn around for resupplying long before the Enterprise would have to consider it, most likely.

This is why I refuse to accept the Reliant as a "Cruiser" (or "light cruiser") but rather think it's a Frigate. It's best suited to serve the role of a frigate, in modern naval terms.

So why use that, instead of a cruiser or a science vessel, to support Genesis?

Well, the cruisers are the "Glory hogs" of the fleet. When the Enterprise, or the Farragut for that matter, get deployed someplace... people pay attention. But send a frigate someplace, and it's pretty well ignored, most likely.

Genesis required security... and that security was supposed to stay relatively nearby (close enough to be on-call if any bad guys showed up). So a short-range(ish) ship with lots of weapons would be ideal on that basis.

And, of course, all we saw Reliant doing was identifying "likely targets"... not doing the final, in-depth surveying that would likely have occurred. Consider how poor Reliant's sensors really were... barely registering anything on their scans, when in fact there was a large group of people. The Enterprise has been able, in the past, to identify a single person with no trouble. And Grissom, in the same situation, would likely have been able to tell what Khan had for breakfast the day before.

I wonder... was Grissom also assigned to Genesis already, but just wasn't on-station at Regula? They DID say that "everyone was on-leave"... maybe they'd gone on-leave by being ferried someplace by Grissom?
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Old March 21 2009, 09:02 PM   #18
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

Agreed with that line of thinking, Cary, particularly this:

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
This is why I refuse to accept the Reliant as a "Cruiser" (or "light cruiser") but rather think it's a Frigate. It's best suited to serve the role of a frigate, in modern naval terms.

So why use that, instead of a cruiser or a science vessel, to support Genesis?

Well, the cruisers are the "Glory hogs" of the fleet. When the Enterprise, or the Farragut for that matter, get deployed someplace... people pay attention. But send a frigate someplace, and it's pretty well ignored, most likely.

Genesis required security... and that security was supposed to stay relatively nearby (close enough to be on-call if any bad guys showed up). So a short-range(ish) ship with lots of weapons would be ideal on that basis.

And, of course, all we saw Reliant doing was identifying "likely targets"... not doing the final, in-depth surveying that would likely have occurred. Consider how poor Reliant's sensors really were... barely registering anything on their scans, when in fact there was a large group of people. The Enterprise has been able, in the past, to identify a single person with no trouble. And Grissom, in the same situation, would likely have been able to tell what Khan had for breakfast the day before.
We seem to be on the same page, then.

I wonder... was Grissom also assigned to Genesis already, but just wasn't on-station at Regula? They DID say that "everyone was on-leave"... maybe they'd gone on-leave by being ferried someplace by Grissom?
That's a very interesting idea. I don't see why not, personally.
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Old March 21 2009, 11:15 PM   #19
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

Absolutely love the Miranda class design ever since TWOK. So to see some discussion and indeed praises for it is great.

As to the post, I've always thought of the Miranda class as the Connie little kid brother/sister. To that end, I'd imagine the Connie could run circles around it. So I too, thought the line meant Khan's hits had reduced the Enterprise's abilities.

However, talk of the Miranda being a dedicated vessel akin to the naval frigates is plausible and certain canon points bear this out when we consider the durability of the Miranda class into the 24th C, the use of the vessel as a border patrol vessel [thinking the Soyuez class variant]. To my mind it is a good fit for the vessel design and how it went toe to toe with a ship of the line.
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Old March 22 2009, 12:39 AM   #20
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

A border patrol and escort vessel might explain why there seemed to be so dang many of them.

For my money, a Miranda can probably maneuver circles around a Connie at impulse and get off a lot of hits against her from her many weapons, but the Connie could probably outrun her in a straight line at full impulse or warp speed and would probably have a higher 'capacity' for her phaser blasts from her fewer banks.
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Old March 22 2009, 01:05 AM   #21
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

^^ Yeah that's what I would think too. Indeed portray in a fanfic of mine. The miranda has a look of being a pugalist, duking it out. The Connie is probably a bit too pretty for that kind of thing!
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Old March 22 2009, 03:34 AM   #22
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

Don't see how a Constitution could outrun a Miranda at impulse when it has greater mass and much smaller impulse engines.

The Reliant's roll bar sits right atop the nacelles which means those phaser canons are fed power from the same huge EPS ducts. Looks like way more phaser power than a Constitution to me.
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Old March 22 2009, 03:51 AM   #23
Praetor
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

StarryEyed wrote: View Post
Don't see how a Constitution could outrun a Miranda at impulse when it has greater mass and much smaller impulse engines.

The Reliant's roll bar sits right atop the nacelles which means those phaser canons are fed power from the same huge EPS ducts. Looks like way more phaser power than a Constitution to me.
But that's assuming the reactors involved produce the same amount of power. For all we know, the Reliant's reactor puts off a lot less power and therefore it's capable of a lesser speed despite the mass differences. Then again, for all we know it doesn't.
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Old March 27 2009, 06:57 AM   #24
Maurice
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

StarryEyed wrote: View Post
Don't see how a Constitution could outrun a Miranda at impulse when it has greater mass and much smaller impulse engines..
Smaller impulse engines? On what do you base that?
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Old March 27 2009, 07:40 AM   #25
Timo
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

Umm, visual comparison of the models? The structures surrounding the Reliant's glowy bits do seem significantly more extensive.

Then again, size might not be everything, as there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between a Nebula and a Galaxy in maneuverability or speed (it's almost a plot point in "The Wounded", really) despite the massive difference in their impulse glowy-bit size.

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Old March 27 2009, 08:33 AM   #26
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

Funny, because back of the impulse deck (openings) looks the be about the same size on both ships, as is the round structure with the round "crystal". In fact, the latter is closer to the back than on the Enterprise, with some of the details swapped around. The other stuff around it looks more like the hull structure than part of the impulse system, but the main components above seem similarly scaled.
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Old March 27 2009, 08:34 AM   #27
Aquehonga
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

Funny thing'bout Reliant.

She was made up for TWOK.

I was disappointed looking in Franz Josef's 70's SF Tech Manual & not finding Reliant anywhere in the manifest of Miranda Class ships.

I'd thought, assumed really, TWOK's makers got the Reliant from that manual, along with the Miranda Class.

Alas, I was wrong. Well, half-wrong. TWOK's PTB got the Miranda Class from Josef's TM. They just made up the ship Reliant for the film.

That's

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

'Cause there ain't!
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Old March 27 2009, 08:53 AM   #28
Timo
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

TWOK's PTB got the Miranda Class from Josef's TM.
Umm, what?

There's no Miranda class in that Tech Manual. There are only five ship classes depicted - Saladin, Hermes, Ptolemy, Constitution and Federation. In addition, there are starship names listed next to these pictures, in multiple batches. Some fans take these batches to mean subtle variants of the ships depicted on the adjoining page, while others assume that the batches refer to completely dissimilar-looking starship classes that merely happen to fill the same function (say, all the batches listed on the page next to the Saladin picture would be destroyers, but they needn't look like the Saladin at all).

The class name Miranda first pops up in the ST Chronology by the Okudas and Mirek, but supposedly it had been bandied about already back when the Reliant was designed for ST2. OTOH, the name Reliant was coined up long before this "villain ship" was actually designed - the older scrip versions essentially call for the Reliant to look like Kirk's TOS ship, as opposed to his TMP-modified one. Which just goes to show that the writers didn't consider FJ's old Tech Manual here, since the book doesn't feature a cruiser named Reliant among its list of names...

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Old March 27 2009, 04:34 PM   #29
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

I think the Mirandas were probably faster and more heavily armed. They could've been less expensive to run too (in terms of crew & resources).
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Old March 27 2009, 07:29 PM   #30
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Re: "She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

My bad Timo

Could'sworn Miranda Class was in there

What was it, Ptolemy Class, that looks exactly like TWOK's Reliant

Haven't looked at FJ's TM in years

It's a great book
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