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Old March 21 2009, 05:43 PM   #16
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

^ You may be right about Archer, though I never really saw his character as truly consistent, but I don't exactly have any solid counterarguments either.

I disagree on T'Pol though. All through season 4 she appeared to be a complete emotional mess, at least to me. And in this novel, she had to deal with the fact that suddenly she was basically all alone ("mother, daughter, lover, all gone" as M&M's put it), and Archer wasn't much of a company since he was guilt-ridden over lying to others (especially her) about Trip's death. BTW, Archer delivering the (fake) sad news to Trip's parents was a powerful moment, at least to me.

And you mention TATV showing the end of T'pol's transition. Well, according to this book, TATV events never happened in 2161, and they didn't happen the way they did in that holodeck simulation. The whole point of TGTMD was to rewrite TATV, the episode in which none of the ENT cast really felt "in character" to me (the least of all Blalock).
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Old March 21 2009, 07:11 PM   #17
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

^ You may be right about Archer, though I never really saw his character as truly consistent, but I don't exactly have any solid counterarguments either.
I think he may've been inconsistent occasionally, but he was in my opinion never "not himself." I never said to myself, "Wow - Archer would never do that" errr except Harbinger I thought he was over the top. I'm tough on the writers, but I do think they had a beat on Archer -- they got him. They knew his weaknesses and his strengths. Mangels didn't. I'll be interested in reading Kobashi Maru (well, not really since I haven't liked the other books he's written) ... maybe "interested" isn't the right word.

I disagree on T'Pol though. All through season 4 she appeared to be a complete emotional mess, at least to me. And in this novel, she had to deal with the fact that suddenly she was basically all alone ("mother, daughter, lover, all gone" as M%M's put it), and Archer wasn't much of a company since he was guilt-ridden over lying to others (especially her) about Trip's death. BTW, Archer delivering the (fake) sad news to Trip's parents was a powerful moment, at least to me.
I see T'Pol as a together woman who is interested in emotion, mostly because they're unusual and she doesn't quite understand them. I think T'Pol would miss Trip, but not be all-consumingly devastated by it. Afterall, she didn't seem devastated by her mother. She shed a tear and then didn't really mention it again. (No doubt she was affected, but dealt with it by exploring the Kir'Shara and being reflective about it.) To me, that's T'Pol. Having her crumble is out of character and really only serves Trip.

And you mention TATV showing the end of T'pol's transition. Well, according to this book, TATV events never happened in 2161, and they didn't happen the way they did in that holodeck simulation. The whole point of TGTMD was to rewrite TATV, the episode in which none of the ENT cast really felt "in character" to me (the least of all Blalock).
Blalock didn't hate TATV because Trip died. According to her quote, she didn't appreciate Frakes and Sirtis having center stage and didn't feel it treated her character well. I agree.

Yes, I realize it declared TATV never happened. What I meant is TATV ends an arc and kind of begins a new T'Pol based on apparently what happened in the six or so years since season 4.
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Old March 21 2009, 07:25 PM   #18
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

Not the best STAR TREK novel in recent years by a longshot...but it was something that was going to happen because of the controversy and Epic Fail of "TATV." Face it, much worse writers could have penned it. Just think of the countless flop novels out there on the market dating back to the first movie and earlier where the writers couldn't put decent dialogue in ANYONE'S mouth. TGTMD isn't perfect by any standard but its superior to "TATV" in almost every regard and in the end it helps salve the bad rug burns we got from the finale.
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Old March 21 2009, 07:40 PM   #19
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

commodore64 wrote: View Post
^ You may be right about Archer, though I never really saw his character as truly consistent, but I don't exactly have any solid counterarguments either.
I think he may've been inconsistent occasionally, but he was in my opinion never "not himself." I never said to myself, "Wow - Archer would never do that" errr except Harbinger I thought he was over the top.
Then you would probably love one of his reactions in Kobayashi Maru (a book that could be dubbed "Harbinger 2.0" by some people, but not because of Archer). He sorta does this reverse psychology thingy.
I think T'Pol would miss Trip, but not be all-consumingly devastated by it.
I was never under the impression that she was all-consumingly devastated. But I think it was the mating bond that made her unable to truly cope. A sense that Trip wasn't really gone. Had he been really dead, she probably would have had less trouble moving on.

commodore64 wrote: View Post
Afterall, she didn't seem devastated by her mother. She shed a tear and then didn't really mention it again. (No doubt she was affected, but dealt with it by exploring the Kir'Shara and being reflective about it.)
One could interpret her Kir'Shara studying as burying herself in it to avoid dealing.

commodore64 wrote: View Post
To me, that's T'Pol. Having her crumble is out of character and really only serves Trip.
Hm, I'm on the fence on this one. BTW, don't read "Kobayashi Maru"

commodore64 wrote: View Post
Blalock didn't hate TATV because Trip died. According to her quote, she didn't appreciate Frakes and Sirtis having center stage and didn't feel it treated her character well. I agree.
No cast member was upset about Trip, not even Trinneer (who even felt flattered IIRC). It was Frakes & Sirtis stealing the show that was the problem.

commodore64 wrote: View Post
What I meant is TATV ends an arc
To me, ENT's every arc ended with Terra Prime. TATV simply felt too much off, that's why the book was written in the first place.
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Old March 21 2009, 08:16 PM   #20
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

JiNX-01 wrote: View Post
oldstredshrtevr wrote: View Post
I am interested in following Trip on his further adventures and am also now very interested in some Andor-centric lit - esps the Aenar.
Kobyashi Maru is book 2. I'm still reading it so I don't have much of an opinion.
I have yet to pick that one up. Even read any of it.

I don't want any spoilers per se...but is it any good?
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Old March 21 2009, 08:19 PM   #21
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
I don't want any spoilers per se...but is it any good?
According to this review here, the worst novel ever written.
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Old March 21 2009, 08:33 PM   #22
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

Mach5 wrote: View Post
cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
I don't want any spoilers per se...but is it any good?
According to this review here, the worst novel ever written.
I'm reading the book now, a little over half way through and I'll admit its not great and very clunky reading but I wouldn't call it the worst book I've ever read, believe me I've read far worse.
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Old March 21 2009, 10:08 PM   #23
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

Review. to each his own.

I liked the book but then I am not a sophisticated reviewer. I am a simple clod you enjoyes a good read.

Believe me I have rad some real junk in my day.

One of the worst, if not the worst had aline like this.

"She was thirlled to see her man in real two fisted he-man action."

It went down hill from there.

The reviewer doesn't like the book, fine. Jost don't knock it for people who might like it if they read it. His review could prvent somone from having a nice reading experience.
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Old March 21 2009, 10:13 PM   #24
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

Mach5 wrote: View Post
cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
I don't want any spoilers per se...but is it any good?
According to this review here, the worst novel ever written.
Despite the fact that you seem to be fascinated enough by my review to bring it up in two threads now, you obviously haven't really read it:

Show me where I said it was the worst novel ever written or the worst I've ever read.
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Old March 21 2009, 10:22 PM   #25
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

Defcon wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
I don't want any spoilers per se...but is it any good?
According to this review here, the worst novel ever written.
Despite the fact that you seem to be fascinated enough by my review to bring it up in two threads now, you obviously haven't really read it:

Show me where I said it was the worst novel ever written or the worst I've ever read.
I was purposely exaggerating. And yes, I've read your review and found it biased. And I gave the link to your review, so there really was no point for me to make things up about it, was there?
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Old March 21 2009, 10:27 PM   #26
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

Mach5 wrote: View Post
And yes, I've read your review and found it biased.
I already answered to your opinion that it's biased in the TrekLit thread:

Defcon wrote: View Post
First of all the basics: a review never is totally objective. Since we're all humans, of course our personal preferences play into how we perceive things. A review is just the opinion of one person (in this case me), nothing more and nothing less.

Having said that: I liked the Enterprise Series, I liked previous Enterprise books and I liked most of the non-Enterprise Mangels & Martin stories, so theoretically I should have a "positive bias", but the combination of the authors and the series just don't work for me and that they are focusing so much on the one part of the series which I liked the least (the Trip & T'Pol relationship) isn't helping either. By the way: based on your avatar I doubt your opinion on the books is more objective than mine.
ETA: And since this thread is about The Good that Men do, here's a link to my review of that one.
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Old March 21 2009, 10:37 PM   #27
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

Defcon wrote: View Post
Having said that: I liked the Enterprise Series, I liked previous Enterprise books and I liked most of the non-Enterprise Mangels & Martin stories, so theoretically I should have a "positive bias", but the combination of the authors and the series just don't work for me and that they are focusing so much on the one part of the series which I liked the least (the Trip & T'Pol relationship) isn't helping either. By the way: based on your avatar I doubt your opinion on the books is more objective than mine.
I never even tried to be objective, and I don't consider Kobayashi Maru to be above mediocre (TGTMD is IMO much better), but I think your review was over the top, and the grade you gave it is the example of that.

Wouldn't 10% be an equivalent of 1/10? Just for comparison, the lowest rating that any movie on IMBb holds is 1.3/10.
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Old March 21 2009, 10:45 PM   #28
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Wouldn't 10% be an equivalent to 1/10? Just for comparison, the lowest rating that any movie on IMBb holds is 1.3/10.
So what? I'm not active on IMDB, but I will just assume it is an average rating of many votes, so a movie with a 1,3 most likely has gotten some 1s oder 0s (whatever the lowest possible rating is ), 10 % isn't the lowest rating I can give (or have given for that matter).
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Old March 22 2009, 01:26 AM   #29
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

kobayashi maru is pretty good,makes me look forward to the romulan war books that are coming up.
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Old March 22 2009, 02:40 AM   #30
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Re: Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

I like Maru too. Actually better than "the good that Men Do."

Of course that is because I am a big fan of Trip and T-Pol and frankly do not like Archer.

IMO for what it is worth.
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