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Old March 18 2009, 12:17 AM   #256
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
I have to change the way I watch the show to enjoy it. And I don't often make such compromises in my entertainment choices, but because it's Star Trek...I allow for it.
That's my problem with Voyager as well - most of the time I don't feel like I'm watching an ongoing and evolving story. I WANT to see characters change and grow over the course of time, and it's a lot harder to see this with the Voyager characters, the Doctor and Seven aside.

When I watch Voyager, I can look to the episodes and specifically say 'I liked that one, that one was okay, I hated that one, I appreciated the idea behind that one but would have done this instead...' It's all episodic, with a focus on what they did solely in the individual episodes, not as part of a grander series-wide tapestry, since very little affects a later story. But when I watch other shows, I find myself looking over the episodes at a later date and realizing 'oh, that's why they did this then! Now it makes sense.' That's hard on me, because I don't want safe television - I'm entertained by thinking, by seeing this or that challenge my presumptions and make me think about who I am, what I've done, what I want, why I do these things. Too often, it felt like Voyager took a safe road instead of challenging the audience to ask the questions their concepts could easily pose.
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Old March 18 2009, 01:55 AM   #257
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I guess I'm in the minority when I say "Projections" isn't one of my favorites. Not sure why - it just never grew on me.
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Old March 18 2009, 02:01 AM   #258
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

neogothboy74 and DGCatAniSiri, excellent posts.

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
I don't want safe television - I'm entertained by thinking, by seeing this or that challenge my presumptions and make me think about who I am, what I've done, what I want, why I do these things.
This is the crux of the issue for me. Entertainment is important from a TV show, but that should never be the entirety of what a TV show is. I want complex character relationships, I want stories which delve into controversial issues, I want ambiguity. I can enjoy Voyager for what it is, but I'm not going to encourage it to be average entertainment when it could be something truly memorable.
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Old March 18 2009, 04:32 AM   #259
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
I really, really enjoyed "Projections" the first time I saw it. But this episode is an example of how I felt that later episodes of Voyager seemed to undermine even the better efforts. Because when Barclay does finally show up for real in the series, the Doctor has NO IDEA who he is. And that just told me that the writers don't care about continuity between episodes.
so, could the doc's memory not have been corrupted when they were trying to save him? after all, he was seeing barclay while he was hallucinating. but, also considering that he had either had memory resets or modifications done in later episodes, isn't it conceivable that he didn't remember barclay b/c of the recoveries they had to do for him? however, maybe your taste is much more discriminating than mine.

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
That's my problem with Voyager as well - most of the time I don't feel like I'm watching an ongoing and evolving story. I WANT to see characters change and grow over the course of time, and it's a lot harder to see this with the Voyager characters, the Doctor and Seven aside.

When I watch Voyager, I can look to the episodes and specifically say 'I liked that one, that one was okay, I hated that one, I appreciated the idea behind that one but would have done this instead...' It's all episodic, with a focus on what they did solely in the individual episodes, not as part of a grander series-wide tapestry, since very little affects a later story. But when I watch other shows, I find myself looking over the episodes at a later date and realizing 'oh, that's why they did this then! Now it makes sense.' That's hard on me, because I don't want safe television - I'm entertained by thinking, by seeing this or that challenge my presumptions and make me think about who I am, what I've done, what I want, why I do these things. Too often, it felt like Voyager took a safe road instead of challenging the audience to ask the questions their concepts could easily pose.
i realize being in a thread that is primarily for trek fans who have problems with voyager, and i'm not trying to be rude here, but were you watching the same show as me with the same open mind?? to me, this series had the much more evolution for most of its characters than any of the other trek series (DS9 was second thoug). even with its episodic nature there was a sense of continuity maintained. the difference b/t it and, say, DS9 is that there weren't periodic reminders being made by one of the characters. it just usually didn't happen again on voyager. the other thing i think is lost on many viewers is the unspoken metaphors and symbolism that voyager is rife with as compared to the other modern day treks. but, y'all mean to tell me that with TNG y'all looked over later episodes and then realized that's why did something in an earlier episode?

as for DS9, that pretty much took as many safe paths as TNG and VOY. yes, b/c it was serial in nature you could take much longer to flesh out one story line, but once that story line was finished how often was it referred to in the first four seasons. it wasn't until the dominion war that you had to really pay attention to (within that series) to certain details and that was to due the very nature of it being centered around a wartime story line. as for continuity, i think you'll find just as many in TNG. DS9 was able to escape this for the most part, i feel, b/c of the setting of the showm but it still had plenty of its inconsistencies.

GodBen wrote: View Post
This is the crux of the issue for me. Entertainment is important from a TV show, but that should never be the entirety of what a TV show is. I want complex character relationships, I want stories which delve into controversial issues, I want ambiguity. I can enjoy Voyager for what it is, but I'm not going to encourage it to be average entertainment when it could be something truly memorable.
voyager didn't cover controversial issues (that has to be a first) or have complex character relationships (as opposed to?).

now, did voyager play it safer than it had to? i can't give you an entirely convincing argument that it didn't everytime. i think the trek producers really considered taking more chances, but UPN execs put the kibosh on them more than a few times.

but, to compare it to DS9 is unfair. just as when TNG fans detracted from DS9 by comparing that which came before it. when DS9 came out i had to defend it to friends who were TNG fans b/c i knew that being on a space station as compared to a starship was different enough. but, to compare them was unfair and they deserved only to be compared to overall storytelling within each series itself. while TNG and VOY are most similar, even trying to compare them is also somewhat unfair. however, after all this is said i guess we all need a reference point. for niners, it's DS9 and everything else is seemingly inferior. likewise for fans of the other shows.

if i'm coming at this debate wrong and you're just as critical of the other treks, then i apologize for the misunderstanding. i realize that if you're a fan of one of the other shows you're going to be more critical of the others and less critical of your favorite, maybe even making exceptions for it. i am probably just as guilty of this as well.
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Old March 18 2009, 06:25 AM   #260
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

blitz wrote: View Post
DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
That's my problem with Voyager as well - most of the time I don't feel like I'm watching an ongoing and evolving story. I WANT to see characters change and grow over the course of time, and it's a lot harder to see this with the Voyager characters, the Doctor and Seven aside.

When I watch Voyager, I can look to the episodes and specifically say 'I liked that one, that one was okay, I hated that one, I appreciated the idea behind that one but would have done this instead...' It's all episodic, with a focus on what they did solely in the individual episodes, not as part of a grander series-wide tapestry, since very little affects a later story. But when I watch other shows, I find myself looking over the episodes at a later date and realizing 'oh, that's why they did this then! Now it makes sense.' That's hard on me, because I don't want safe television - I'm entertained by thinking, by seeing this or that challenge my presumptions and make me think about who I am, what I've done, what I want, why I do these things. Too often, it felt like Voyager took a safe road instead of challenging the audience to ask the questions their concepts could easily pose.
i realize being in a thread that is primarily for trek fans who have problems with voyager, and i'm not trying to be rude here, but were you watching the same show as me with the same open mind?? to me, this series had the much more evolution for most of its characters than any of the other trek series (DS9 was second thoug). even with its episodic nature there was a sense of continuity maintained. the difference b/t it and, say, DS9 is that there weren't periodic reminders being made by one of the characters. it just usually didn't happen again on voyager. the other thing i think is lost on many viewers is the unspoken metaphors and symbolism that voyager is rife with as compared to the other modern day treks. but, y'all mean to tell me that with TNG y'all looked over later episodes and then realized that's why did something in an earlier episode?
My problem with the character development in Voyager was that there were no arcs for the characters, other than the Doctor and Seven's development into more humanized characters. To me, this feels like it was done primarily out of how when the characters arrived, they were essentially blank slates and anything could be done with them, while the other characters had lives that existed before they arrived on Voyager. Beyond those two, the only really character arc and growth I saw was with Tom and B'Elanna, Tom going from the womanizing and somewhat jerky man to a loving and devoted, though somewhat smartass-y, husband, and B'Elanna becoming more comfortable in being both human and Klingon. These developments and growths are only visible from watching multiple seasons, though, rather than having seasonal character arcs, leading the character from one point to another in their lives.

I never said that the other Trek serieses lacked the same problem (the words I used specifically were 'other shows,' but I wasn't thinking specifically of the other Treks), and I hold TNG up as an example of the same lack of defined character arcs and ball-drops with certain characters I see in Voyager, and even the Klingon arc for Worf seems mostly ignored outside of the focus episodes. I see Star Trek as having a lot of problems with defining what they're going to do with their characters. Really, the reason I let DS9 off the hook in this regard is that there were some gradual character arcs that were carried through over the seasons - O'Brien and Bashir's friendship grew over the space of a couple of seasons from O'Brien loathing him to them becoming Heterosexual Life Partners. Sisko went from a reluctant religious icon into a man with deep faith in the beings he once viewed soley as 'wormhole aliens.' Odo had two, looking for his people and then his relationship with Kira developing from friends to lovers.

I did not see these long-term character arcs on Voyager. When I look at the Chakotay or Tuvok or (and especially) Harry Kim of Caretaker, I cannot see a difference in the version that appears in Endgame. However, I do see changes in the Ben Sisko, the Kira Nerys, the Odo, the Julian Bashir, even the Quark we see in Emissary and What You Leave Behind. Ezri, in the space of one year, became more confidant in who she was now, with the Dax symbiont, also clearly growing and changing over the course of the year. The characters were expected to grow and change and learn from their experiences, but I never quite felt the same with the characters on Voyager.

That, to me, is my biggest problem with Voyager - when a character has an experience that would normally demand follow-up, it's usually left alone, not to mention how on occasion, the 'character crisis' of the week was completely out of the blue. The episode 'Extreme Risk,' for example had no build up and no follow up. We're told that B'Elanna has grown somewhat suicidal since learning of the Maquis being wiped out back in the Alpha Quadrant, but the first indication we get that something's wrong is seeing her in the holodeck, deactivating safety protocols in that episode. Likewise, given that suicidal depression is a real issue, they should have shown how she deals with this in later episodes - even Juggernaut, later in the season, could have been an opportunity to ask how she is dealing, but I don't recall even lip service being paid to the earlier episode.

I can enjoy Voyager - when it's good, it's really good, and the ideas can get me thinking about my own life. But the reverse is true, that when it's bad it's really bad. And when I look back on Voyager as a whole, I see more missed opportunities with the stories it presented than any other, and most if not all of the episodes that reached that level I wanted, they were ones that focused on or at least heavily featured either Seven or the Doctor. However, with the really good episodes of DS9, there's a good sampling of most of the main cast. I want to watch not just an interesting Sci-Fi story, but something about ALL of the characters it claims in the ensemble.

When I look at Voyager, the missed opportunities and ball drops feel very tangible, as opposed to the missed opportunities and ball drops on DS9, and even to an extent TNG - TNG's main mission statement was that they were continuing the exploration of the final frontier. Voyager was about two crews coming together to find a way home. TNG just promises that they'll continue to explore space and the human condition, but built into that premise is no hint that they'll be taking the characters places. Voyager's premise seems like it would lead to a lot of stories that are told solely on board the ship, exploring the aspects of two groups of people who may not really be all that compatible learning from one another and becoming something else, as they need to rely on one another to make the long trip back home. But I never get the feeling that Voyager is far from home - most episodes we see feel like the story could have just as easily taken place back in the Alpha Quadrant, because they'll often feature aliens of the week, instead of doing something with the characters in their situation of being far from home, probably never to see their families and loved ones again. I'm not saying I wanted Voyager to be a completely dark and depressing show, but I think that the episodes and the characters were TOO happy for people in their situation.

The longer I go on, the more I start to feel I'm losing the point I started out with, so I'm going to stop my ranting here.
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Old March 18 2009, 06:35 AM   #261
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^i understand your POV. i don't agree with most of it, but nonetheless i can appreciate your the points you make.
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Old March 18 2009, 07:13 AM   #262
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
I really, really enjoyed "Projections" the first time I saw it. But this episode is an example of how I felt that later episodes of Voyager seemed to undermine even the better efforts. Because when Barclay does finally show up for real in the series, the Doctor has NO IDEA who he is. And that just told me that the writers don't care about continuity between episodes. Having a fairly good memory, continuity is important to my enjoyment of a series, and this lack of attention to character details really made it hard for me to enjoy Voyager. Because when I rewatch "Projections" my mind now sees this 'flaw', that wasn't there the first time around, because my brain just automatically connects these events to the later ones. It was what made a lot of DS9 a joy to watch; episodes of that series (often episodes that don't seem that important) build on each other until most of the series has a cohesion, which was very satisfying for those who stuck around for the entire journey. But I quickly learned that to enjoy Voyager I had to 'turn off' that part of my brain and watch each episode as if no other episodes existed, which felt insulting to me as fan and a viewer (that I should have stoop to such levels to enjoy the series), and unfortunate for the creators of the series (who could have achieved so much more). I have friends that are huge Voyager fans, and we'll talk about the show, and I'll rave about certain episodes - because Voyager does have some brilliant episodes that I love to watch over and over - and my friends will then point out that it sounds like I'm a Voyager fan. And I am. But I have to change the way I watch the show to enjoy it. And I don't often make such compromises in my entertainment choices, but because it's Star Trek...I allow for it.
They did actually screw up The Doctor's memory already in "Before And After".

As we all know, The Doctor was activated around Stardate 48315.6 (26 April 2371) in the episode "Caretaker". In this episode he is treating Kes's bruises when she arrives to the ship. He also cures Kim and Torres from the disease they got while being examined by the Caretaker and he heals Chakotay's broken leg.

In "Time And Again" which takes place two months later, The Doctor examines Kes after she had that premonition about the destroyed planet. Then he don't seem to have any memory of treting her in "Caretaker" and he don't seem to remember that Chakotay and the Maquis had joined the crew either. I mean, they had been on the ship for two months then.

OK, such sloppy writing can of course be explained as temporal glitches in The Doctor's program but he was supposed to be a very sofisticated program.
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Old March 18 2009, 03:17 PM   #263
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

And I suppose you can explain away the Doctor forgetting about Barclay when he seemed to completely lose his memory in season 3's The Swarm. We know that he got most of his memories back after that, but maybe Barclay slipped through the cracks. See, you can explain away almost anything.
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Old March 18 2009, 05:27 PM   #264
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
And I suppose you can explain away the Doctor forgetting about Barclay when he seemed to completely lose his memory in season 3's The Swarm. We know that he got most of his memories back after that, but maybe Barclay slipped through the cracks. See, you can explain away almost anything.
Honestly, some of the more silly errors and some of the sloppy writing can be explained or written around.

But not all.

And sometimes it is very difficult to try to come up with some plausible explanation to the worst contradictions.

Voyager's mysteries-and how to solve them: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/P...mysteries.html
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Old March 18 2009, 05:33 PM   #265
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

blitz wrote: View Post
but, to compare it to DS9 is unfair. just as when TNG fans detracted from DS9 by comparing that which came before it. when DS9 came out i had to defend it to friends who were TNG fans b/c i knew that being on a space station as compared to a starship was different enough. but, to compare them was unfair and they deserved only to be compared to overall storytelling within each series itself. while TNG and VOY are most similar, even trying to compare them is also somewhat unfair. however, after all this is said i guess we all need a reference point. for niners, it's DS9 and everything else is seemingly inferior. likewise for fans of the other shows.
It is not unfair to compare two sci-fi shows which take place in the same franchise. I compare TV shows all the time; I compare The West Wing with The Sopranos even though one is about politics and another is about criminal and family life. I compare nuBSG with Lost even though one is a post-apocalyptic alternate reality and another is about a magical island in the pacific. I compare Scrubs with Arrested Development even though one is a comedy about weird characters working in a hospital and the other is a comedy about a dysfunctional family which is under investigation for corruption. None of those shows have anything to do with one another, but I compare them and can determine which I prefer and what aspects of each show I would like to see in the others.

I compare DS9 to Voyager because they are both Star Trek shows which aired at the same time. DS9 had story arcs, Voyager didn't. DS9 had a large amount of character development, Voyager only had a little. DS9 challenged me, Voyager rarely did. Voyager is its own show and it has its fans and I'm not going to criticise them for liking something which I didn't, but there is nothing wrong with me saying that I preferred DS9 to Voyager and explaining why.

I prefer The West Wing to The Sopranos because it had snappy dialogue, I prefer nuBSG to Lost because of the character development, I prefer Scrubs to Arrested Development because I like the characters on Scrubs more, and I prefer DS9 to Voyager because of all of the above.
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Old March 18 2009, 06:27 PM   #266
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
I compare DS9 to Voyager because they are both Star Trek shows which aired at the same time. DS9 had story arcs, Voyager didn't. DS9 had a large amount of character development, Voyager only had a little. DS9 challenged me, Voyager rarely did. Voyager is its own show and it has its fans and I'm not going to criticise them for liking something which I didn't, but there is nothing wrong with me saying that I preferred DS9 to Voyager and explaining why.

I prefer The West Wing to The Sopranos because it had snappy dialogue, I prefer nuBSG to Lost because of the character development, I prefer Scrubs to Arrested Development because I like the characters on Scrubs more, and I prefer DS9 to Voyager because of all of the above.
ok. i don't agree, but then i approach tv viewing differently than you do. i guess i must've taken things away differently in voyager and DS9 too. well, that's obvious, since i am almost reversed in my views on DS9 and VOY. though, to be fair, i guess on some level i, too, must compare the trek shows b/c i found voyager the most interesting while you stated why you found DS9 the most interesting. i guess the main difference is i think my comparison is on a sub-conscious level whereas your's is on a conscious level.

and please don't take this as an insult, but it seems bizarre to me that you compare shows that aren't even in the same genre. i think as long as you find a show interesting and enjoyable, sit back, relax and enjoy it.

however, you do your thing, i'll do my thing, and we'll each like the shows we like. btw, i like scrubs too.

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Old March 18 2009, 08:36 PM   #267
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

blitz wrote: View Post
...but it seems bizarre to me that you compare shows that aren't even in the same genre.
Well I tend to only think in terms of there being only two genres; drama and comedy.
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Old March 19 2009, 05:31 AM   #268
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
DS9 had story arcs, Voyager didn't. DS9 had a large amount of character development, Voyager only had a little. DS9 challenged me, Voyager rarely did.
DS9 had story arcs, but it's not necessarily one of the series streghts. Jumping from Dominion issues to Klingons stuff was kind of bi-polar from the writers and producers. Bajoran stuff with those "fire demons" was perhaps the most ridiculous aspect of the story arc. Dominion War was great.

DS9 had character development, but none of the characters interested me as much as characters in Voyager. Sisko didn't inspire me like Janeway did and still does, Bashir was very weak (and annoying) compared to both Beverly Crusher and The Doc. O'Brien was minor character in TNG who become mediocre at best on DS9. He is likeable, though. True stars are Kira, Odo, Quark and Garak.

So needless to say that I prefer Voyager. But DS9 is good too, even though it does not reach to the level of awesomeness of Voyager or legendness of TNG.

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Old March 19 2009, 07:00 PM   #269
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
DS9 had story arcs, Voyager didn't. DS9 had a large amount of character development, Voyager only had a little. DS9 challenged me, Voyager rarely did.
DS9 had story arcs, but it's not necessarily on of the series streghts. Jumping from Dominion issues to Klingons stuff was kind of bi-polar from the writers and producers. Bajoran stuff with those "fire demons" was perhaps the most ridiculous aspect of the story arc. Dominion War was great.

DS9 had character development, but none of the characters interested me as much as characters in Voyager. Sisko didn't inspire me like Janeway did and still does, Bashir was very weak (and annoying) compared to both Beverly Crusher and The Doc. O'Brien was minor character in TNG who become mediocre at best on DS9. He is likeable, though. True stars are Kira, Odo, Quark and Garak.

So needless to say that I prefer Voyager. But DS9 is good too, even though it does not reach to the level of awesomeness of Voyager or legendness of TNG.
Sisko becomes a totally different man in the end though. He goes from being an angry and broken man who hates the idea of being a spiritual icon, to a man who embraces life, family, and religion. He is complex and real in was that most of the other captains where not. Even in becoming a Prophet, he stays accessible.

Bashir is another character that goes through a metamorphosis. He does start out whiny and annoying, be he evolves in to a good friend to O'Brien, a shrewd thinker that was able to out-think Sloan and instrumental in influencing Garak for the better.

O'Brien is the everyman that you can truly relate to. He says what the audience is thinking most of the time. He also learns to be less prejudice in the show. He is able to see past Bashir's flaws (after he gets past being annoyed by him) and learns to like Bashir more that Keiko. He is the kind of friend everyone should have, loyal and constant.

Then, add to them, all of the other characters, Garak, Kira, Odo, Quark, Rom, Jake (the first child on Star Trek to be not annoying or a genius), Nog, Vic, Leeta, Ki Winn, Dukat, Ziyal, Martok, both Daxs and the list goes on. Each of these characters has more growth in the series than Chrusher, Riker, Kim, Chakotay, Geordi, Deanna and Mayweather. And on top of all that, most of those DS9 characters are not the main cast, but side characters; talk about, what you leave behind! It is a richer and fuller tapestry than any other Trek series. All because it was not afraid to push the envelope.
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Old March 19 2009, 07:30 PM   #270
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Elogium (½)

Let's talk about Kes baby,
let's talk about her and Nee(lix).
Let's talk about all the bad things,
and the very bad things,
they did in (prod no.) 118.
Let's talk about Kes.


The severe logical errors really ruin this episode, and it doesn't help that it is so boring that my mind kept on dwelling on the logical errors rather than what was actually going on. Now I'm no expert on sex... wait, let me rephrase that. I'm no biology professor, but I do know that sex is supposed to be fun and that it is supposed to be so easy that animals, or teenagers who dropped out of high-school and are addicted to meth, know how to do it. You put the thing in there, you wiggle around for 30 seconds and you're done. That's right, I know how the ladies like it.

If sex could only be performed once, it involved a sweaty woman bloated from eating beetles, two hours of foot rubbing, a few days of bonding, hand pus and abnormal back growths... I would probably give it a pass. The pr0n industry on Ocampa must really suffer.

I'm not even going to bring up the fact that population growth for Ocampan's is less than 0.5, I figured that out when I first saw this episode aged 9. If a 9 year-old can see such a glaring logical problem then how can professional writers not? At least the writers for this episode would never get a chance to work on this show again.

(Jeri Taylor: show runner during seasons 3 & 4, Kenneth Biller: show runner during season 7.)

Those of you who follow sfdebris' great reviews know about his Stupid Neelix Moments™, and I couldn't stop thinking about those when I was watching this episode. His character was so insufferable that I consider this whole episode to be a stupid Neelix moment because it is impossible to pick just one moment from this episode.

Then there is the plot with the aliens flying all about the ship. I miss Picard because he would have just shot the bastards and be done with it, instead we get boring suspense which at least took us away from the Kes/Neelix story-line. And this is the 24th century, so why does Chakotay act like Mary Whitehouse when it comes to sex?

I just watched Futurama's The Beast With a Billion Backs last night, if you want to watch some sci-fi sex with weird aliens then I would strongly suggest you watch that over Elogium because it probably makes more sense.

Worst episode yet.
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