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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

View Poll Results: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?
The seven seasons of TNG 20 45.45%
First Contact 14 31.82%
Both freaked me out equally! 9 20.45%
Neither one freaked me out 1 2.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 18 2009, 07:49 PM   #31
SiorX
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Gary7 wrote: View Post
I also support the series perspective as being the most powerful. I can't agree more that introducing a Borg queen was contradictory to the whole principle upon which the Borg are based--an anonymous collective. There is NO NEED for a queen. It makes no sense. The collective mind is what drives the Borg. And that is what is so alien. So formidable. So deadly. As Picard said, "You can't reason with the Borg." At least not until their existence is threatened, as with species 8472.

So yes... FC started it and Voyager propagated it... this "violation" to Borg life. The queen. Tragic defacement of a great idea.
Actually, I'm going to disagree with most people here and say that the Queen is actually not only plausible, but logical and maybe even inevitable when it comes to the Borg. I won't explain in this thread why I think that (it would be off topic), but I'd be happy to start a thread about it.
I'd be interested in hearing that argument. I dunno whether a new thread is necessary - it doesn't seem particularly OT to me. But either way, have at it if you like.
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Old March 18 2009, 07:53 PM   #32
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

Captain Gandalf wrote: View Post
QuasarVM wrote: View Post
Captain Gandalf wrote: View Post

Agreed. But what made them especially scary was the music in "Q Who?" and especially "BOBW"; it made your skin crawl!
Your damned right! You can thank the awesome talents of Mr. Ron Jones for those. And what did he get as a reward for his outstanding efforts?

Firing. Fired by Rick Berman.

Why doens't that surprise me? After all, it's same man who gave "a Valentine Massacre Day" to the fans.
"a Valentine Massacre Day"

That's the truth! I guess Dennis will pop up any minute now to defend him (Berman) though...
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Old March 18 2009, 07:56 PM   #33
QuasarVM
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

SiorX wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Gary7 wrote: View Post
I also support the series perspective as being the most powerful. I can't agree more that introducing a Borg queen was contradictory to the whole principle upon which the Borg are based--an anonymous collective. There is NO NEED for a queen. It makes no sense. The collective mind is what drives the Borg. And that is what is so alien. So formidable. So deadly. As Picard said, "You can't reason with the Borg." At least not until their existence is threatened, as with species 8472.

So yes... FC started it and Voyager propagated it... this "violation" to Borg life. The queen. Tragic defacement of a great idea.
Actually, I'm going to disagree with most people here and say that the Queen is actually not only plausible, but logical and maybe even inevitable when it comes to the Borg. I won't explain in this thread why I think that (it would be off topic), but I'd be happy to start a thread about it.
I'd be interested in hearing that argument. I dunno whether a new thread is necessary - it doesn't seem particularly OT to me. But either way, have at it if you like.
Yeah I'd like to hear that too.

Initially I was against the Borg Queen...but Alice Krige's portrayal was so well done that it was irresistable.

Still, I prefer the Borg from the first three Borg-isodes.
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Old March 19 2009, 12:22 AM   #34
Tiberius
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

I'll start a new thread, as the structure of the Borg Collective is a different topic to whether Series Borg or Neo Borg are the freakier.... I'll post a link when I have the thread up....

HERE is the thread where I explain my views on the Borg Queen, and why she is a perfectly logical part of the Collective. I look foreards to seeing what you guys think about my idea.

Last edited by Tiberius; March 19 2009 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Added link.
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Old March 19 2009, 12:27 AM   #35
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

They are albino dominatrixes, there is nothing freakier than that.
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Old March 19 2009, 12:53 AM   #36
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

I waffled between picking "Both" and "First Contact." In the end, I picked both, because I do really like the concept of the Borg as shown in Q Who and (especially) BoBW. However, the series Borg also suffer from two things: One, going back and watching those eps now, they DO look kinda doofy. First Contact was much better in this regard (which is, of course, in large part due to movie budget vs. TV show budget). The Borg in FC actually look and act creepy. Two, while I thought that Hugh was an interesting concept, and that the initial Hugh ep (I, Borg) was, on it's own, pretty good, what they did later totally fell flat. Descent was really pretty bad, and sapped a lot of the coolness and creep factor from the Borg.

I have mixed feelings on the Queen in FC. Overall, while I think that the concept was a bit out of left field (and at first, I had the same reaction many others here did: that it took away from that initial creepiness the Borg had by giving them an emotional, clealry identifiable "bad guy" leader), it grew on me during the actual movie. I can see the logic behind having the queen from a plot perspective, too; I like the idea that it's a holdover from when they were a more conventional, biological species (however long ago THAT was), and they have never been able to completely get rid of the collectives need for this single governing force. So in the end, it worked for me. FC also introduced us to random, instant assimilation: the first time seeing that one security officer get grabbed and "tubule-d" sent a shiver down my spine. Talk about creep factor! Also, seeing the "partially assimilated" officers later (Hawk, but also just randoms in Borgified engineering) was very effective as well. So I picked both, but I really don't think the queen in FC did as much to damage the Borgs creepiness as I thought she might.

Some of the Voyager Borg stuff, on the other hand...
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Old March 19 2009, 01:02 AM   #37
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

^ Concur with much of what you said. As I stated in another thread most people's gripe with the Queen rests just in how the Borg appeared more scary when faceless - Picard in BoBW talking to a huge empty cavern within the cube. Lines and lines of drones, voices speaking as one. Whoah ... chilling.

Queen? Reduces them to almost a villian of the week status - which is what they became in many people's eyes in Voyager.

Obviously with the movie budget they looked uber cool and scary. But even the lack of budget details in those first appearances actually adds somewhat to the character of the Borg. yes the production values were so much less but as a jolt to the senses when they first showed up.

Amoutated limbs replaceed with cybernetic tools, cybernetic eye pieces, the zombified walk, all helped to cement the feel, character and scare factor of the Borg when we first saw them. Obviously with repeated exposure they inevitably lost their edge. Sad
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Old March 19 2009, 01:36 AM   #38
Too Much Fun
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

Saito S wrote: View Post
Two, while I thought that Hugh was an interesting concept, and that the initial Hugh ep (I, Borg) was, on it's own, pretty good, what they did later totally fell flat. Descent was really pretty bad, and sapped a lot of the coolness and creep factor from the Borg.
This is exactly why I can't make up my mind about this poll. When I rewatch TNG, I just skip those "Descent" episodes/pretend they don't exist. They did a disservice both to the Borg and the character of Lore (although the teaser sequence before the opening credits was intriguing). I liked First Contact from start to finish and have nothing but praise for how the Borg were portrayed in it, but at the same time, I think they were much cooler in "Q Who" and "Best of Both Worlds" (despite the budget constraits) due to how effective those episodes were in making them look unstoppable (until the almost too easy rescue of Picard).

I also found Hugh in "I, Borg" to be a more interesting character than The Queen in First Contact, so I think judging the quality between the episodes and the movie, they balance out pretty evenly. The Borg in the movie don't match the intimidation factor of those in the first three Borg episodes or come across as emotionally stimulating as Hugh in "I, Borg", but then again, the movie never cheapens the characters the way those "Descent" episodes did.
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Old March 19 2009, 01:46 AM   #39
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

The movie probably took the idea of violating the body to new heights and therefore wins the poll in my view.

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Old March 19 2009, 01:54 AM   #40
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

EnsignRicky wrote: View Post
Definitely the ones from the series. By the time FC came along, the Borg had already been defeated a few times. As far as I'm concerned the first time an unstoppable enemy is stopped, they can never again be taken as a serious threat. Hell, by the time Voyager rolled around, they were basically reduced to the token roll of resident Klingons.
Agreed. Part of the problem with how the Borg were handled, even on TNG, is that they were essentially too powerful after their first appearance. That's why all later attacks consisted mainly of a lone Borg ship the heroes could overwhelm, because Guinan's description of them coming in force (which sounds more plausible) would have meant they'd lose.

I'm also somewhat on the fence about the queen, in that I think the concept makes sense but I agree she was often not used well. I'm inclined to believe there may be multiple queens, or at least several, active to regulate the Collective at any one time since a lone queen is relatively easier to kill.
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Old March 19 2009, 01:56 AM   #41
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

Unicron wrote: View Post
EnsignRicky wrote: View Post
Definitely the ones from the series. By the time FC came along, the Borg had already been defeated a few times. As far as I'm concerned the first time an unstoppable enemy is stopped, they can never again be taken as a serious threat. Hell, by the time Voyager rolled around, they were basically reduced to the token roll of resident Klingons.
Agreed. Part of the problem with how the Borg were handled, even on TNG, is that they were essentially too powerful after their first appearance. That's why all later attacks consisted mainly of a lone Borg ship the heroes could overwhelm, because Guinan's description of them coming in force (which sounds more plausible) would have meant they'd lose.

I'm also somewhat on the fence about the queen, in that I think the concept makes sense but I agree she was often not used well. I'm inclined to believe there may be multiple queens, or at least several, active to regulate the Collective at any one time since a lone queen is relatively easier to kill.
BOBW may be the best Borg episode, but in my view Q Who is the purest appearance. In that episode they were definitely designed to be this type of indestructable enemy for the sake of the plot...it it worked, the UFP ran.

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Old March 19 2009, 11:42 PM   #42
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

I meant 'they' as in the Borg themselves, not the show creators!

Maybe it was something the Borg experimented with, having a Queen.... just saying that would have been a BETTER idea than what we got since it would have allowed for an 'out' if the Queen sucked.
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Old March 20 2009, 12:35 AM   #43
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

First Contact Borg freaked me more because they were so "contagious." Series Borg had to perform surgery to achieve the transformation.
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Old March 20 2009, 08:15 AM   #44
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

I think FC Borg have it, but there are pros and cons to both. Series Borg had that relentless facelessness that was really heart-thumping. The mass voice was also disturbing. That they had to do surgery to create Borgness was a bit obvious, while the idea of injecting Borgness into their victims to transform them that way is more disturbing to me.
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Old March 20 2009, 11:07 AM   #45
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Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

I think the Borg had the scariest voice in First Contact. Much scarier than the series voice, even in Voyager.
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