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Old March 16 2009, 12:59 AM   #241
neogothboy74
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
Ew. I'd forgotten about that. Why'd you remind me?
Sorry. I was distracted remembering the hot lead werewolf guy that kept getting naked.

At least he was more attractive that Chakotay's butt double in "Tattoo".

And I'm not knocking Chakotay fans here; trust me. But that other guy was just YUMMY.
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Old March 16 2009, 09:33 PM   #242
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
This episode is made worse by having some strangely convenient plot-devices, such as a planet you can transport to but for some reason a far simpler radio signal can't get through, and Chakotay needing a shuttle to perform a (probably bullshit) Indian ritual which he could later perform in his quarters.
This is, to me, the only time they got something about Chakotay's made-up Tribe Hollywood religion right. Nature-based mystics have places in nature where they are closer to god. For some it's water, for some it's the mountains. It seemed right somehow, that Chakotay would be drawn to space--since he was drawn to space when he chose to leave his homeworld in the first place.

Just because he *could* do something in his quarters doesn't mean it's the best place to do it.
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Old March 16 2009, 09:50 PM   #243
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Understood. To me at least it seemed like a cop-out though that he took the shuttle for the purpose of doing this apparently important thing, only to do it in his quarters at the end. Maybe this was supposed to have some kind of emotional resonance and be symbolic. I don't know, it just didn't work that way for me.
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Old March 16 2009, 10:12 PM   #244
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
Understood. To me at least it seemed like a cop-out though that he took the shuttle for the purpose of doing this apparently important thing, only to do it in his quarters at the end. Maybe this was supposed to have some kind of emotional resonance and be symbolic. I don't know, it just didn't work that way for me.
I understand that, and I'm probably giving TPTB more credit than is due. It's just that I grasp at any little thing that looks even remotely authentic when it comes to Chakotay's background.
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Old March 16 2009, 10:17 PM   #245
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Understandable.
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Old March 16 2009, 10:44 PM   #246
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

teya wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Understood. To me at least it seemed like a cop-out though that he took the shuttle for the purpose of doing this apparently important thing, only to do it in his quarters at the end. Maybe this was supposed to have some kind of emotional resonance and be symbolic. I don't know, it just didn't work that way for me.
I understand that, and I'm probably giving TPTB more credit than is due. It's just that I grasp at any little thing that looks even remotely authentic when it comes to Chakotay's background.
hey teya, if we can get "tribe hollywood" recognized by the federal government as a legitimate native american tribe we could open up our own casino. then, we can bring back the star trek experience.
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Old March 17 2009, 06:13 AM   #247
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

teya wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
This episode is made worse by having some strangely convenient plot-devices, such as a planet you can transport to but for some reason a far simpler radio signal can't get through, and Chakotay needing a shuttle to perform a (probably bullshit) Indian ritual which he could later perform in his quarters.
This is, to me, the only time they got something about Chakotay's made-up Tribe Hollywood religion right. Nature-based mystics have places in nature where they are closer to god. For some it's water, for some it's the mountains. It seemed right somehow, that Chakotay would be drawn to space--since he was drawn to space when he chose to leave his homeworld in the first place.

Just because he *could* do something in his quarters doesn't mean it's the best place to do it.
Your logic is flawless, teya.
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Old March 17 2009, 06:18 PM   #248
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Projections (****)

This is a great episode which almost earned itself an extra half a star, but then they did the cliché of pretending The Doctor was out of the holodeck only for him to really still be inside it. Shock! A holodeck malfunction episode is a cliché enough as is, you don't need to add more on top of it.

Other than that the only other complaints I have about this episode are minor such as Barclay's involvement with designing the EMH when he should have been onboard the E-D, or how Janeway said it would take her half an hour to make it from the bridge to the mess hall when it is only down one deck. It's a small ship Katheryn, it shouldn't take you half an hour to get anywhere from anywhere. However, these are minor and didn't really diminish the viewing experience.

It would have been five stars with one minor change; I would have had The Doctor pull out a phaser and attempt to destroy the warp core right before they managed to get the program shut down. It would have shown that in his heart he wanted to be human and was willing to risk his existence for that opportunity. Having him "dying" on the floor seemed like a cop-out so he wouldn't have to make that choice.
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Old March 17 2009, 06:20 PM   #249
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

teya wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Understood. To me at least it seemed like a cop-out though that he took the shuttle for the purpose of doing this apparently important thing, only to do it in his quarters at the end. Maybe this was supposed to have some kind of emotional resonance and be symbolic. I don't know, it just didn't work that way for me.
I understand that, and I'm probably giving TPTB more credit than is due. It's just that I grasp at any little thing that looks even remotely authentic when it comes to Chakotay's background.
Me too. That might be a reason why I find parts of Chakotay's background story interesting, despite some horrible flaws.
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Old March 17 2009, 06:24 PM   #250
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Projections (****)
I agree. Good episode, good writing. This did grew on me, though.
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Old March 17 2009, 06:29 PM   #251
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Projections (****)

This is a great episode which almost earned itself an extra half a star, but then they did the cliché of pretending The Doctor was out of the holodeck only for him to really still be inside it. Shock! A holodeck malfunction episode is a cliché enough as is, you don't need to add more on top of it.

Other than that the only other complaints I have about this episode are minor such as Barclay's involvement with designing the EMH when he should have been onboard the E-D, or how Janeway said it would take her half an hour to make it from the bridge to the mess hall when it is only down one deck. It's a small ship Katheryn, it shouldn't take you half an hour to get anywhere from anywhere. However, these are minor and didn't really diminish the viewing experience.

It would have been five stars with one minor change; I would have had The Doctor pull out a phaser and attempt to destroy the warp core right before they managed to get the program shut down. It would have shown that in his heart he wanted to be human and was willing to risk his existence for that opportunity. Having him "dying" on the floor seemed like a cop-out so he wouldn't have to make that choice.
"Projections" is actually one of my top 10 favorite Voyager episodes.

The whole episode is actually absurd in many ways but in a positive way, you know that there is some problem with The Doctor but you don't know what it is. I just love that little twist near the end when you think that the whole thing is over and then you realize that The Doctor is still caught up in whatever problem there is. In fact, when I watched the episode the first time, I wasn't sure that the episode was really over until the end credits started to roll.

The whole episode is actually nothing more than a sort of nightmare The Doctor is having but it's made in an excellent way with some unexpected twists and turns and all the main characters got important roles in it. Excellent episode!

I'll give it 5 points out of 5
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Old March 17 2009, 06:32 PM   #252
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

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It would have been five stars with one minor change; I would have had The Doctor pull out a phaser and attempt to destroy the warp core right before they managed to get the program shut down. It would have shown that in his heart he wanted to be human and was willing to risk his existence for that opportunity. Having him "dying" on the floor seemed like a cop-out so he wouldn't have to make that choice.
Agreed, that one would have been a much better ending. Nitpicks aside, this was a pretty enjoyable episode for me. Predictable, but enjoyable.
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Old March 17 2009, 06:39 PM   #253
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Naah. The ending was fine just the way it was.
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Old March 17 2009, 10:19 PM   #254
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Lynx wrote: View Post
The whole episode is actually nothing more than a sort of nightmare The Doctor is having...
I don't look at it like that, I think this is an excellent psychological analysis of the Doctor's character and something which reveals a lot about him. It is somewhat tragic because in some sub-conscious part of his programming he wants to be human even though he knows that he is really a hologram and will never be human. That is why I consider the ending where he is "dying" in engineering to be something of a cop-out because it prevents him from making the decision he has to make. The false ending really annoyed me because it wasn't character based, it was just added for shock value that the episode didn't need.

I love this sort of episode because I can analyse it for about a week and see it in many different forms, and that is exactly what a character study should do. It reminds me a lot of TNG's Frame of Mind, also a Braga episode, where Riker is suffering a mental breakdown and trying to figure out just what reality is, only Projections is so much more because it is about the Doctor exploring his true nature and what he wants to be.

That is why I want the Doctor to be forced to make a decision at the end rather than have it decided for him. This is a character episode and the ending should revolve around the character and that just didn't happen here. By having the Doctor make the choice that he wants to believe he is human they would have been adding a whole new level to his character and to this episode, but as it is the ending can be summed up by saying "and then they fixed it". That is not a good ending for a character episode.
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Old March 17 2009, 10:55 PM   #255
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I really, really enjoyed "Projections" the first time I saw it. But this episode is an example of how I felt that later episodes of Voyager seemed to undermine even the better efforts. Because when Barclay does finally show up for real in the series, the Doctor has NO IDEA who he is. And that just told me that the writers don't care about continuity between episodes. Having a fairly good memory, continuity is important to my enjoyment of a series, and this lack of attention to character details really made it hard for me to enjoy Voyager. Because when I rewatch "Projections" my mind now sees this 'flaw', that wasn't there the first time around, because my brain just automatically connects these events to the later ones. It was what made a lot of DS9 a joy to watch; episodes of that series (often episodes that don't seem that important) build on each other until most of the series has a cohesion, which was very satisfying for those who stuck around for the entire journey. But I quickly learned that to enjoy Voyager I had to 'turn off' that part of my brain and watch each episode as if no other episodes existed, which felt insulting to me as fan and a viewer (that I should have stoop to such levels to enjoy the series), and unfortunate for the creators of the series (who could have achieved so much more). I have friends that are huge Voyager fans, and we'll talk about the show, and I'll rave about certain episodes - because Voyager does have some brilliant episodes that I love to watch over and over - and my friends will then point out that it sounds like I'm a Voyager fan. And I am. But I have to change the way I watch the show to enjoy it. And I don't often make such compromises in my entertainment choices, but because it's Star Trek...I allow for it.
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