Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?

Nerys Ghemor · March 15 2009, 10:21 PM

I'm going to ignore Voyager, Enterprise, and Treklitfor the purpose of this poll and confine the discussion to TNG-related appearances.

But the recent avatar contest really got me thinking. Which portrayal of the Borg did you find the creepiest to watch, and why?

SiorX · March 15 2009, 10:59 PM

Definitely the Borg as they appeared in the series.

The introduction of the Borg Queen is, for me, one of the lamest moves TPTB ever made. The hive mind with which one cannot directly reason gave the Borg a kind of zombie horror.

The Borg queen reduces the terrifying drones to servents of another tacky Sexy Sexy Danger(TM) villainess to pseudo-intimidate, but then be destroyed by, the hero. That rubbish was old when Rider Haggard did it in the 1880s and it hasn't gotten any fresher with time.

black_dranzer · March 16 2009, 12:55 AM

Definately the series. The introduction of the Queen to give the Borg a single voice in my opinion really wrecked them. When they take Picard to assimilate him in Best of Both Worlds, and he's standing in the cube trying to talk to the Borg, you really get the impression that this thing is huge, powerful, and doesn't care about any of the same things as us - summed up in the exchange "We would rather die!" "Death is irrelevant. Resistance is futile": Picard has a visible reaction to this, and it's clear that he's fully realising just how different the Borg are (or should it be "is", if it's really just one mind? I dunno

). Then you have First Contact, where the Queen has to resort to seduction to get what she wants and appears to have a slight aversion to dying.

I also didn't get, if the Borg were able to assimilate/"consume" technology as it was shown and stated that they could, why they didn't just assimilate Data instead of going through the whole seduction-and-giving-him-human-skin fiasco. Obviously from a film perspective it makes more sense I suppose, but from an in-universe perpective it makes the Borg look weak and inept - I mean okay, Data was an advanced piece of technology, but he was still made by a Federation scientist and the Borg are shown to be far, far more advanced than the Federation and have presumably encountered life-forms with technology far superior to anything the Federation have - and let's face it, an assimilated Data would have been a far more effective villain for the film than the Queen!

Of course, this is also the Collective that takes the long way round through the Federation fleet when they apparently have a transwarp conduit that opens like, a light-year from Earth

Erm, well that turned into a bit of a rant, but I think my point was - the Borg were scarier when they were ruthless, powerful and unstoppable with no agenda other than to add your biological and technological distinctiveness to their own.

Nerys Ghemor · March 16 2009, 05:02 PM

I definitely see the points you're making about the way the plots were for the Borg. I was able to take it up to and including First Contact...but I think it went way too far with VOY and ENT.

Now, what about the costume aspect? Obviously one costume was done on a lower budget for TV, not for the movies, but still, if you look at what they were trying to accomplish--which one did you find freakier and why?

Alrik · March 16 2009, 05:20 PM

I'd have to go with the series as well, mainly because of issues already pointed out. I must admit that FC is in my top 4 of Trek movies (so far), but it was the begining of the end for the Borg as far as being creepy.

Thor Damar · March 16 2009, 06:10 PM

I voted for the TNG episodes although they didn't real sell the Borg either. The late 80's production values made them look somewhat camp IMO. Still when you first hear about them they seem like a force to be reckoned with and of course BOBW is a star trek masterpiece.

But then they had go and ruin it all be doing something stupid like turning the Borg into space Zombie/Vampires

I guess you could say that the Borg have never really worked for me.

Piper · March 16 2009, 06:39 PM

The series. The Borg were never as scary as in their first two stories. The more we learnt the less of a threat they seemed.

Dane_Whitman · March 16 2009, 06:51 PM

As they appeared in TNG and ENT. I actually think Regeneration made the Borg imposing again, like they hadn't been since The Best of Both Worlds.

EnsignRicky · March 16 2009, 08:29 PM

Definitely the ones from the series. By the time FC came along, the Borg had already been defeated a few times. As far as I'm concerned the first time an unstoppable enemy is stopped, they can never again be taken as a serious threat. Hell, by the time Voyager rolled around, they were basically reduced to the token roll of resident Klingons.

Chemahkuu · March 16 2009, 08:44 PM

The look of the ships and drones would be First Contact. But the *voice* was much more chilling in TNG.

Nerys Ghemor · March 16 2009, 08:55 PM

It seems, at least to me, that with the TNG Borg the degree of alteration upon being assimilated was intended to be much more severe than with the FC Borg, and that's one of the things about the costumes that--although they had less of a budget to create them with--really freaked me out about the TNG Borg. It didn't seem like the changes were quite as severe with FC. You could recognize a Klingon as a Klingon, a Cardassian as a Cardassian, and so on--and even then they didn't seem to do as MUCH to them as the TNG Borg did.

RobertScorpio · March 16 2009, 09:33 PM

SiorX wrote:

Definitely the Borg as they appeared in the series.

The introduction of the Borg Queen is, for me, one of the lamest moves TPTB ever made. The hive mind with which one cannot directly reason gave the Borg a kind of zombie horror.

The Borg queen reduces the terrifying drones to servents of another tacky Sexy Sexy Danger(TM) villainess to pseudo-intimidate, but then be destroyed by, the hero. That rubbish was old when Rider Haggard did it in the 1880s and it hasn't gotten any fresher with time.

Wow... I thought I was the only who thought this way. I totally agree. The QUEEN ruined the borg..utterly..

Rob

RobertScorpio · March 16 2009, 09:34 PM

I would vote for OTHER if I gould...they were only good up to BOBW 2..anything after that, including I BORG, did only one thing...TOOK THEIR BALLS AWAY!!! made them just another lame-shlong TREK bad guy...

Rob

Ro_Laren · March 17 2009, 12:18 AM

I voted First Contact, but then remembered how scary BOBW was. They're all scary.

Jeyl · March 17 2009, 12:29 AM

TNG Series without a doubt.

I think they took the "As long as they don't consider you a threat" ploy to be over played and too convenient. In the Episode Q Who, Riker makes the assumption that the Borg don't see them as a threat until Data says that it's because the drones are using their combined power to repair their ship. I think the 'regeneration' idea should have stayed rather then being a 'threat' as the #1 rule. The Borg shouldn't care if you're a threat or not, they should just assimilate you!

And yes, the Queen did ruin it what the series presented to be such a great idea. No single leader who can make mistakes, just the combined whole. Well now they have a single leader and she makes more mistakes than Wille Coyote.

View Poll Results: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact?
The seven seasons of TNG	20	45.45%
First Contact	14	31.82%
Both freaked me out equally!	9	20.45%
Neither one freaked me out	1	2.27%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

March 15 2009, 10:59 PM	#2
SiorX Fleet Captain Location: Aporia	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? Definitely the Borg as they appeared in the series. The introduction of the Borg Queen is, for me, one of the lamest moves TPTB ever made. The hive mind with which one cannot directly reason gave the Borg a kind of zombie horror. The Borg queen reduces the terrifying drones to servents of another tacky Sexy Sexy Danger(TM) villainess to pseudo-intimidate, but then be destroyed by, the hero. That rubbish was old when Rider Haggard did it in the 1880s and it hasn't gotten any fresher with time.

March 16 2009, 12:55 AM	#3
black_dranzer Lieutenant Location: Great Britain	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? Definately the series. The introduction of the Queen to give the Borg a single voice in my opinion really wrecked them. When they take Picard to assimilate him in Best of Both Worlds, and he's standing in the cube trying to talk to the Borg, you really get the impression that this thing is huge, powerful, and doesn't care about any of the same things as us - summed up in the exchange "We would rather die!" "Death is irrelevant. Resistance is futile": Picard has a visible reaction to this, and it's clear that he's fully realising just how different the Borg are (or should it be "is", if it's really just one mind? I dunno ). Then you have First Contact, where the Queen has to resort to seduction to get what she wants and appears to have a slight aversion to dying. I also didn't get, if the Borg were able to assimilate/"consume" technology as it was shown and stated that they could, why they didn't just assimilate Data instead of going through the whole seduction-and-giving-him-human-skin fiasco. Obviously from a film perspective it makes more sense I suppose, but from an in-universe perpective it makes the Borg look weak and inept - I mean okay, Data was an advanced piece of technology, but he was still made by a Federation scientist and the Borg are shown to be far, far more advanced than the Federation and have presumably encountered life-forms with technology far superior to anything the Federation have - and let's face it, an assimilated Data would have been a far more effective villain for the film than the Queen! Of course, this is also the Collective that takes the long way round through the Federation fleet when they apparently have a transwarp conduit that opens like, a light-year from Earth Erm, well that turned into a bit of a rant, but I think my point was - the Borg were scarier when they were ruthless, powerful and unstoppable with no agenda other than to add your biological and technological distinctiveness to their own. __________________ Hail the conquering Dominion!

March 16 2009, 05:02 PM	#4
Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Location: Cardăsa Terăm--Nerys Ghemor	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? I definitely see the points you're making about the way the plots were for the Borg. I was able to take it up to and including First Contact...but I think it went way too far with VOY and ENT. Now, what about the costume aspect? Obviously one costume was done on a lower budget for TV, not for the movies, but still, if you look at what they were trying to accomplish--which one did you find freakier and why? __________________ Are you a Cardassian fan, citizen? Prove your loyalty--check out my fanfic universe, Star Trek: Sigils and Unions. Or keep the faith on my AU Cardassia, Sigils and Unions: Catacombs of Oralius!

March 16 2009, 05:20 PM	#5
Alrik Commodore Location: Alrik is on A deck chair, somewhere....or Iowa. Brrr.	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? I'd have to go with the series as well, mainly because of issues already pointed out. I must admit that FC is in my top 4 of Trek movies (so far), but it was the begining of the end for the Borg as far as being creepy.

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March 15 2009, 10:21 PM	#1
Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Location: Cardăsa Terăm--Nerys Ghemor	Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? I'm going to ignore Voyager, Enterprise, and Treklitfor the purpose of this poll and confine the discussion to TNG-related appearances. But the recent avatar contest really got me thinking. Which portrayal of the Borg did you find the creepiest to watch, and why? __________________ Are you a Cardassian fan, citizen? Prove your loyalty--check out my fanfic universe, Star Trek: Sigils and Unions. Or keep the faith on my AU Cardassia, Sigils and Unions: Catacombs of Oralius!

March 16 2009, 06:10 PM	#6
Thor Damar Rear Admiral Location: Thor Damar, God of thunder and monologue..	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? I voted for the TNG episodes although they didn't real sell the Borg either. The late 80's production values made them look somewhat camp IMO. Still when you first hear about them they seem like a force to be reckoned with and of course BOBW is a star trek masterpiece. But then they had go and ruin it all be doing something stupid like turning the Borg into space Zombie/Vampires I guess you could say that the Borg have never really worked for me. __________________ Current avatar brilliantly drawn by Gul Re'jel

March 16 2009, 06:39 PM	#7
Piper Fleet Captain	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? The series. The Borg were never as scary as in their first two stories. The more we learnt the less of a threat they seemed.

March 16 2009, 06:51 PM	#8
Dane_Whitman Captain Location: Dinner to bug.	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? As they appeared in TNG and ENT. I actually think Regeneration made the Borg imposing again, like they hadn't been since The Best of Both Worlds. __________________ "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

March 16 2009, 08:29 PM	#9
EnsignRicky Commodore Location: Somewhere Far Beyond	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? Definitely the ones from the series. By the time FC came along, the Borg had already been defeated a few times. As far as I'm concerned the first time an unstoppable enemy is stopped, they can never again be taken as a serious threat. Hell, by the time Voyager rolled around, they were basically reduced to the token roll of resident Klingons. __________________ Use Only As Directed

March 16 2009, 08:44 PM	#10
Chemahkuu Vice Admiral Location: United Kingdom	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? The look of the ships and drones would be First Contact. But the voice was much more chilling in TNG.

March 16 2009, 08:55 PM	#11
Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Location: Cardăsa Terăm--Nerys Ghemor	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? It seems, at least to me, that with the TNG Borg the degree of alteration upon being assimilated was intended to be much more severe than with the FC Borg, and that's one of the things about the costumes that--although they had less of a budget to create them with--really freaked me out about the TNG Borg. It didn't seem like the changes were quite as severe with FC. You could recognize a Klingon as a Klingon, a Cardassian as a Cardassian, and so on--and even then they didn't seem to do as MUCH to them as the TNG Borg did. __________________ Are you a Cardassian fan, citizen? Prove your loyalty--check out my fanfic universe, Star Trek: Sigils and Unions. Or keep the faith on my AU Cardassia, Sigils and Unions: Catacombs of Oralius!

March 16 2009, 09:34 PM	#13
RobertScorpio Pariah Location: San Diego	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? I would vote for OTHER if I gould...they were only good up to BOBW 2..anything after that, including I BORG, did only one thing...TOOK THEIR BALLS AWAY!!! made them just another lame-shlong TREK bad guy... Rob

March 17 2009, 12:18 AM	#14
Ro_Laren Commodore Location: The Badlands	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? I voted First Contact, but then remembered how scary BOBW was. They're all scary.

March 17 2009, 12:29 AM	#15
Jeyl Commodore Location: Asheville, NC	Re: Which Borg incarnation is freakier? Series or First Contact? TNG Series without a doubt. I think they took the "As long as they don't consider you a threat" ploy to be over played and too convenient. In the Episode Q Who, Riker makes the assumption that the Borg don't see them as a threat until Data says that it's because the drones are using their combined power to repair their ship. I think the 'regeneration' idea should have stayed rather then being a 'threat' as the #1 rule. The Borg shouldn't care if you're a threat or not, they should just assimilate you! And yes, the Queen did ruin it what the series presented to be such a great idea. No single leader who can make mistakes, just the combined whole. Well now they have a single leader and she makes more mistakes than Wille Coyote.