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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old March 16 2009, 02:19 PM   #16
USS KG5
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

No reason to believe otherwise either, after all manoeuverability is only dependant on two things.

1. The power of the ships engines to fight inertia and provide acceleration.
2. The ability of the ship and those in it to survive the stresses inflicted by the aforementioned engines.

Seeing as in Trek we can assume massively powerful engines and incredible hull strength augmented by structural integrity fields and inertial dampers, I see no particular reason why even the largest starships cannot throw themselves around.

If anything the scenes in Nemesis are probably more realistic than those in TWOK by these standards, though of course the TWOK shots are more graceful. In reality it is easy to explain the discrepancy though, we never see undamaged ships engaging heavily in open space in TWOK.
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Old March 16 2009, 05:13 PM   #17
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
If anything the scenes in Nemesis are probably more realistic than those in TWOK by these standards, though of course the TWOK shots are more graceful. In reality it is easy to explain the discrepancy though, we never see undamaged ships engaging heavily in open space in TWOK.
I tend to agree. The whole point of TWoK was that Meyer wanted very much to recreate a Hornblower in space atmosphere and they created situations to mimic this.

One might suppose, VFX limitations aside, that all Starfleet ships were always as relatively agile and maneuverable as seen in 'Nemesis.' Older ships would presumably be somewhat less maneuverable but I don't see why there would be a huge disparity in ability. Even our big modern naval ships are capable of some pretty quick maneuvers.
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Old March 16 2009, 10:31 PM   #18
Mister_Atoz
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

One could even find on-screen justification for the apparent differences in maneuverability. Khan's sneak attack on the Enterprise wouldn't have been as effective if the the relative started conspicuously banking and turning like a fighter. Conversely, Khan's already inexperienced crew were unprepared for Enterprise's counter attack, the escape maneuver Joachim pulled is probably the best he could do in the time he had with Khan shouting at him to return fire.

The second battle in the nebula didn't see much maneuvering either, but then again both ships were stumbling around in there half blind so there was really no need for it, it may even have been dangerous to do so.
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Old March 16 2009, 10:53 PM   #19
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

I remember Geordi opining (in TNG "Relics") that Jenolan could probably have run rings around the Enterprise at impulse, and that impulse engine design hadn't changed much in 200 years.
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Old March 17 2009, 04:06 AM   #20
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

The Jenolan was also rather tiny and appeared to have a huge impulse engine, FWIW.
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Old March 17 2009, 07:52 AM   #21
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

If the warp engines, window rows and bridge dome are any indication, the Jenolan was about the size of Kirk's original two ships. And the huge black opening aft appears to be a cavernous shuttlebay or cargo hold - indeed, it's difficult to locate any impulse engine (that is, any rocket nozzle shape) on that ship at all, unless it's immediately adjacent to the blue dome atop the hull.

Still, it is plausible that a smaller ship would have an advantage over a larger one in this respect, even when those fancy mass-nullifying fields come to play. The [i]Jenolan[i] looks like she could dip into an atmosphere and perhaps land and take off, probably calling for plenty of off-axis thrust that might also aid in spatial maneuvering. And she'd probably have different impulse characteristics empty and fully laden, while the E-D would have lesser differences in that respect. I wonder what else was being transported to Norpin besides Scotty's personal bulk?

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Old March 17 2009, 01:56 PM   #22
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

Timo wrote: View Post
I wonder what else was being transported to Norpin besides Scotty's personal bulk?
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Old March 17 2009, 03:53 PM   #23
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

Yes, it appears Jenolan is about the size of three(!) Constitution-class ships in volume, or just under. Of course, a lot of that is probably empty space for carrying stuff, and she sure could carry a lot of it. Some fans assumed that she was only a personnel transport because she was carrying Scotty and because the Nash was conveying various important characters on four occasions on DS9, but I rather think this type of ship is a heavy warp hauler that can carry lots of cargo and passengers too, and this probably explains why we see one in active service many years later (even heading out to relatively distant and dangerous DS9). I don't think she could land, being so big and considering the time she was built, but there's definitely plenty of room for shuttles to come and go.

It's possible Geordi was being a bit nice when he estimated its impulse performance relative to Enterprise-D, but I bet he actually has a point, and I take the statement about impulse engines not having changed radically at face value.
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Old March 17 2009, 03:58 PM   #24
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

Timo wrote: View Post
If the warp engines, window rows and bridge dome are any indication, the Jenolan was about the size of Kirk's original two ships. And the huge black opening aft appears to be a cavernous shuttlebay or cargo hold - indeed, it's difficult to locate any impulse engine (that is, any rocket nozzle shape) on that ship at all, unless it's immediately adjacent to the blue dome atop the hull.

Timo Saloniemi
Umm no, the large black area on the aft of the Jenolan ARE the impulse engines.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/sfvarious1.htm
^^ You can see the seperate nozzles/exhaust pipes in the first picture of the Sydney class.
They are take up almost half of the rear of the ship, which means she must be a real hot rod at impulse power as for size of the sydney, the ship is about 235 meters long.
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Old March 17 2009, 04:33 PM   #25
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

^Yeah, I don't think they really made changes to that part of the model when they rescaled it into the Jenolan. And that is still fairly tiny compared to the D, even if she is a transport with potentially lots of bulk aboard.

Surely Scotty's boat from TUC was aboard?
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Old March 17 2009, 05:53 PM   #26
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

From the novelization, they suggest that the Jenolan was transporting cargo and a bunch of passengers, including Scott. During the crash, the passenger compartment was torn open and everyone there was killed, and something similar happened on the bridge, killing the rest of the crew. Scotty was in Engineering with Ensign Franklin, which was not as damaged, allowing those two to survive.

Back to the Ambassador, we know they HAVE torpedo bays from dialogue in "Yesterday's Enterprise", though the model has never been seen firing anything of the sort (sorry Timo, in "Emissary" only phaser fire was seen from any ship, though dialogue similary supports the Saratoga having torpedoes). I like the idea of torpedo tubes that are simply hidden behind slideaway doors for whatever reason... And in terms of the lack of phaser coverage aft, if the existing phasers keave blind spot I see no reason they can't have tiny point phaser emitters a la Lakota or Defiant. If the Ambassador was really a pathfinder kind of ship, I see no reason why they can't have a mix of weapons technologies in the design, even as a redundancy in case the fancy new phaser strips don't work out well.

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Old March 17 2009, 06:13 PM   #27
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

Mark_Nguyen wrote: View Post
And in terms of the lack of phaser coverage aft, if the existing phasers leave blind spot I see no reason they can't have tiny point phaser emitters a la Lakota or Defiant. If the Ambassador was really a pathfinder kind of ship, I see no reason why they can't have a mix of weapons technologies in the design, even as a redundancy in case the fancy new phaser strips don't work out well.
Agreed, and a good point - both the Lakota and the Defiant seemed to have phasers coming out of, well, nowhere. Tiny details that don't seem to correspond to phasers we've seen before.
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Old March 17 2009, 06:43 PM   #28
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

Exactly. Hey, check this uber-awesome photo pictorial of the Ambassador that Doug Drexler, Gary Kerr and Rick Sternbach put together on Drexler's blog. Apologies if it's been posted already:

http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/...uxe/#more-3164

Among things, they retcon the Ambassador's length at 478.5 meters, not 526. Lots of good photos here, and possible weapons emplacements while we're at it...

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Old March 17 2009, 09:52 PM   #29
Timo
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

Regarding the butt end of the Jenolan, people seem to forget that there exists a clear photo of the stern of that vessel, too. Not only is the black area astern a cavernous shuttlebay going deep into the structure, it has a tiny observation deck right above the mouth! It was apparently created by ripping out the row of yellow lights (impulse engine?) from the original model and not filling the cavity with anything.

Now, if I only could locate that photo somewhere... The old IDIC Page had it, but that site is now gone.

The ST6 model was severely and permanently modified for the Jenolan appearance - yet appears completely intact (but repainted) again in ST:GEN, and then appears as the Sydney class Nash in DS9. So apparently there were at least two separate models, of which only one was given the wings and nacelles. Or, more probably, the molds for making the ST6 remained and were used for making the Jenolan's hull later on.

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Old March 17 2009, 10:54 PM   #30
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Re: Ambassador class weapons

Oh interesting, I'd never seen that photo. My assumptions were based off the idea that they reused it for 'Generations' and then redid it again for DS9 but a second model as confirmed by this photo makes more sense.

I stand corrected.
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