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Old March 15 2009, 05:28 PM   #16
M'rk, son of Mogh
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

Norrin Radd wrote: View Post
I think he's an ass and deserves whatever criticism he gets.

And this is from someone who never even visited scans daily.
I know, I don't respect people who follow the laws and rules given to them. What type of crazy society IS this?!

People forget, Marvel or him, didn't even have time to do anything about this. The site was down by then. Even if the intent was there for something to happen (he never said shut down the site, they could have EASILY worked out a compromise), he or Marvel are not to blame.

Regardless, nothing wrong, ethically or according to the law, was done by them. And if nothing wrong was done by the site, why were they so quick to shut things down?
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Old March 15 2009, 05:34 PM   #17
Norrin Radd
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

M'rk, son of Mogh wrote: View Post
Norrin Radd wrote: View Post
I think he's an ass and deserves whatever criticism he gets.

And this is from someone who never even visited scans daily.
I know, I don't respect people who follow the laws and rules given to them. What type of crazy society IS this?!

People forget, Marvel or him, didn't even have time to do anything about this. The site was down by then. Even if the intent was there for something to happen (he never said shut down the site, they could have EASILY worked out a compromise), he or Marvel are not to blame.

Regardless, nothing wrong, ethically or according to the law, was done by them. And if nothing wrong was done by the site, why were they so quick to shut things down?
Look, I don't even give a shit about this situation and whether he or Marvel or whoever was "legally right" or not. He's still an asshole...IMO.
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Old March 15 2009, 05:34 PM   #18
Mr. Adventure
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

I wonder how tenaciously PAD searched to see if "Marvel Legal" had time in those two days after his report to get those images taken down on their own. I mean, there's no way Marvel Legal could have gotten in touch with Photobucket.
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Old March 15 2009, 05:36 PM   #19
TemporalFlux
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

Jan wrote: View Post
Peter David is not the copyright owner of the pages in question therefore he could not demand for anybody to remove them.
Which is why he notified Marvel legal after reading a CBR thread concerning X-Factor...a title he writes. So yes, he had absolutely no interest in something he wrote (which he gets publishing royalties from); the whole thing was just a coincidence.

Do you guys listen to yourselves?
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Old March 15 2009, 06:48 PM   #20
M'rk, son of Mogh
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

Norrin Radd wrote: View Post
Look, I don't even give a shit about this situation and whether he or Marvel or whoever was "legally right" or not. He's still an asshole...IMO.
You claim not to care, yet you call him that based on... a guy doing what's right?

Man, imagine what you would have called him had he stopped a bank robbery or something! Well, in this case, had he called the cops only to discover they were already on the scene doing their jobs, so his call wouldn't have really amounted to much...
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Old March 15 2009, 08:53 PM   #21
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
This from Peter David's site linked to at the start of the thread:

Peter David wrote:
I didn’t contact the legal department to have the images removed. I contacted the legal department to inform them of a copyright violation.
This is the equivalent of saying, "I told the police that guy was stealing my stuff, but I didn't mean for them to stop him!" It's that kind of cheap dishonesty that now makes me think of David as a weasel. If he would have been a man and owned up to his justifiable action, then it wouldn't bother me; but he instead chose to be a weasel in the face of criticism. I've got no respect for the guy now.
No offense, but bullshit. Informing Marvel that someone's violating their copyright is absolutely his right and doesn't mean that he's out to get anything deleted. For all he knows, Marvel already knows about the violation and has chosen to allow it -- and as he pointed out in one of his replies, it would have been completely inappropriate for him to assume that he could just act as Marvel's representative and demand that something be deleted by the mods, especially since he doesn't know if Marvel would want those images deleted or not. There's nothing dishonest about saying, "I let Marvel know that someone was violating their copyright, and I didn't do it with the intent of getting the site shut down or to have the images removed."

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
Jan wrote: View Post
Peter David is not the copyright owner of the pages in question therefore he could not demand for anybody to remove them.
Which is why he notified Marvel legal after reading a CBR thread concerning X-Factor...a title he writes. So yes, he had absolutely no interest in something he wrote (which he gets publishing royalties from); the whole thing was just a coincidence.

Do you guys listen to yourselves?
So the frick what? Like David says, Marvel is the copyright owner and for all he knows they've chosen to allow those scans as a form of free promotion. It's not his place to make any decisions about that on Marvel's behalf -- the appropriate thing is to say, "Hey, this is happening," and then let them go from there.
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Old March 15 2009, 09:22 PM   #22
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

yah I was kinda bummed about it...I had a whole bunch of bookmarks to s_d for different pages from comics I cant afford to buy. I had recently become a Two-Face fan after watching the Dark Knight & it was very helpful for me in trying to learn about the character's backstory & which storyline I would like & which to avoid. If I can scrounge enough money I plan on getting couple trades, thanks to S_D I know which ones to look for...
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Old March 15 2009, 09:38 PM   #23
the Dagman
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

Sci wrote: View Post
TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
This from Peter David's site linked to at the start of the thread:

Peter David wrote:
I didn’t contact the legal department to have the images removed. I contacted the legal department to inform them of a copyright violation.
This is the equivalent of saying, "I told the police that guy was stealing my stuff, but I didn't mean for them to stop him!" It's that kind of cheap dishonesty that now makes me think of David as a weasel. If he would have been a man and owned up to his justifiable action, then it wouldn't bother me; but he instead chose to be a weasel in the face of criticism. I've got no respect for the guy now.
No offense, but bullshit. Informing Marvel that someone's violating their copyright is absolutely his right and doesn't mean that he's out to get anything deleted. For all he knows, Marvel already knows about the violation and has chosen to allow it -- and as he pointed out in one of his replies, it would have been completely inappropriate for him to assume that he could just act as Marvel's representative and demand that something be deleted by the mods, especially since he doesn't know if Marvel would want those images deleted or not. There's nothing dishonest about saying, "I let Marvel know that someone was violating their copyright, and I didn't do it with the intent of getting the site shut down or to have the images removed."

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
Jan wrote: View Post
Peter David is not the copyright owner of the pages in question therefore he could not demand for anybody to remove them.
Which is why he notified Marvel legal after reading a CBR thread concerning X-Factor...a title he writes. So yes, he had absolutely no interest in something he wrote (which he gets publishing royalties from); the whole thing was just a coincidence.

Do you guys listen to yourselves?
So the frick what? Like David says, Marvel is the copyright owner and for all he knows they've chosen to allow those scans as a form of free promotion. It's not his place to make any decisions about that on Marvel's behalf -- the appropriate thing is to say, "Hey, this is happening," and then let them go from there.
Yes, Marvel is the copyright holder and many in the Marvel creative offices likely knew and frequented the site. PAD wasn't one of those obviously. And PAD was perfectly justified in telling Marvel's legal department about this. He really didn't do anything "wrong" there at all. The only thing wrong is that while saying he set the ball in motion, he is claiming that his kicking the ball had nothing to do with its moving.

S_D did have moderators on the site who would have listened to the creator of any given work and would have instantly removed any content they did not wish to have up. Whether they were the copyright holder or not. He could have merely contacted them and asked for them to remove what he didn't want spoiled. Doing that would have gotten what he wanted accomplished and the site would be undamaged. But he went to the lawyers instead.

Photobucket had nothing to do with shutting down S_D. The pages on S_D were hotlinked from that user's account, they were in violation of their TOS and removed them all on their own. Their job was done. They had no need to contact LiveJournal about the matter because it was already handled from their end.

The fact remains. Two days after PAD told Marvel's legal department of S_D's existence on LiveJournal, LJ shut them down. Just enough time for them to print up a cease and desist letter and have it sent to LiveJournal via certified mail. No more, no less. And if you think Marvel's legal guys wouldn't or didn't... well, I'd invite you to think about that timing and the actions of lawyers once again.

Now, telling anyone that they should die in a fire anywhere for any reason is over the line. (he says, looking upthread a few posts) PAD was not wrong for doing what he did and definitely doesn't deserve it. But his claim that he had nothing to do with shutting down scans_daily is nothing more than smarmy, weasely, doublespeak that lawyers and salesmen engage in. (PAD was originally in Marvel's advertising department before he ever wrote a comic or book) And it is for that reason people are pissed at him. He had a lot of fans at that site, who gushed and wrote about his works time and time again ad nauseum. And they feel like their hero just took a piss all over them. So I can understand their feeling hurt. But to tell him to die in a fire is overboard and wrong.
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Old March 15 2009, 09:59 PM   #24
Tomato
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

Personally I think shutting S_D was the worst thing that happened. I remember buying comic books just because of what was posted. It was the best free advertising that companies could get. People would rave about certain issues and then in turn I would buy the tpb.
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Old March 15 2009, 10:47 PM   #25
Jan
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

Perhaps if the moderators at Scans Daily had actually done their jobs and kept the scanned pages to a level that could be regarded as Fair Use none of this would have happened at all.

Jan
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Old March 15 2009, 10:52 PM   #26
hyzmarca
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

M'rk, son of Mogh wrote: View Post
Regardless, nothing wrong, ethically or according to the law, was done by them. And if nothing wrong was done by the site, why were they so quick to shut things down?
Because the mere appearance of improproiety is just as bad, and often worse, than impropriety itself. Photobucket and Livejournal really don't care about their users, the users are just paychecks to them. They won't ever go to bat for anyone because a lawsuit, even when they're in the right, would just cost too much money.
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Old March 15 2009, 10:55 PM   #27
TemporalFlux
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

Sci wrote: View Post
There's nothing dishonest about saying, "I let Marvel know that someone was violating their copyright, and I didn't do it with the intent of getting the site shut down or to have the images removed."
So what did PAD think might happen? Are we now to the level of saying PAD is either incredibly naive or amazingly dumb? We know he isn't, and that's where the dishonest part comes in. PAD is asking us to swallow that he sent this innocent, objective notice to Marvel legal never realizing that it might cause the site to be torn down. As you would say, "bullshit".

As you'll note in my original comment (which you would have if you had read it), I said PAD's actions were justifiable. The chicken-shit part is that PAD is now playing this innocent lil' girl routine because some people are criticizing him. He doesn't want any part of any responsibility.

Sci wrote:
So the frick what? Like David says, Marvel is the copyright owner and for all he knows they've chosen to allow those scans as a form of free promotion. It's not his place to make any decisions about that on Marvel's behalf -- the appropriate thing is to say, "Hey, this is happening," and then let them go from there.
And some here seem to be implying that PAD had no vested interest in this beyond seeing if this was okay with Daddy Marvel; that it wasn't PAD's property involved. I guess PAD works for Marvel for free; hell, he probably pays them for the privledge to write their books.

PAD didn't give a shit until it was his wallet involved; PAD of course contacted Marvel legal because he had a vested interest, and that was his right with no argument or criticism from anyone. Why would PAD care? PAD is scared of losing readers on his title, and he has a right to be scared after seeing both his She-Hulk and Fallen Angel cancelled due to poor sales.

All I'm saying is that it severely disappoints me that PAD can't just be a man and admit his motives; it's not hard to lay it out there. But hey, maybe this kind of chicken-shit, two-faced stuff is what PAD does on a regular basis. It would go a long way toward explaining why PAD doesn't have more work and why the companies generally don't support his work (lest we forget Bill Jemas tearing into Captain Marvel and PAD himself - which led to PAD running to the internet crying for our help).
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Old March 15 2009, 11:52 PM   #28
shanejayell
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

Jan wrote: View Post
Perhaps if the moderators at Scans Daily had actually done their jobs and kept the scanned pages to a level that could be regarded as Fair Use none of this would have happened at all.

Jan
Sadly, no one's sure what 'fair use' is in this case, legally. I'm sure Marvel lawyers have one standard, everyone else another... *lol*
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Old March 16 2009, 12:30 AM   #29
the Dagman
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

shanejayell wrote: View Post
Jan wrote: View Post
Perhaps if the moderators at Scans Daily had actually done their jobs and kept the scanned pages to a level that could be regarded as Fair Use none of this would have happened at all.

Jan
Sadly, no one's sure what 'fair use' is in this case, legally. I'm sure Marvel lawyers have one standard, everyone else another... *lol*
scans_daily's mods DID do their "jobs" in setting a limit at 50% or less of any book could be posted. From what I hear, in their new incarnation they are reducing that to a third or less as well as adopting suggestions made by Gail Simone regarding content and creator's concerns into their "official" rules of the site.

But from what I had seen there, there were very few posts that contained the max pages from any newly released title. More often than not, people scanned in a single or small number of panels that seem funny to them taken out of context. Much like the Superdickery site does. And there was also a bit of fan-art. One recent funny one was a shot of the Justice League in the style from the cartoon all sitting around a table playing strip poker. Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl were topless, Batman and Flash were also both shirtless (Bats had a big grin on his face) and Superman and the Martian Manhunter were both fully clothed also with big grins. Diana and Shayera were complaining to each other "Superman is using his x-ray vision on our cards." "And J'onn is reading our thoughts." And then there was a Bizarro version of that same panel, only the Bizarro girls both still had perfect racks. Some funny stuff.

From my point of view here, no one really did anything wrong on either side for the most part. S_D was using what they believed was fair use of the material for comment and analysis. Marvel exercised their rights under copyright law. The only wrong bits are telling someone to die in a fire and PAD not taking the responsibility for setting the ball in motion after he admitted kicking the damn thing. The first one should have kept their mouth shut. And PAD should have as well if he didn't want to accept that his action on the matter led to nuking the site.
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Old March 16 2009, 12:39 AM   #30
SiorX
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Re: Peter David may (?) have killed Scans_Daily

Jan wrote: View Post
Perhaps if the moderators at Scans Daily had actually done their jobs and kept the scanned pages to a level that could be regarded as Fair Use none of this would have happened at all.

Jan
One rather ironic part of the whole thing is that the s_d mods were due to roll out new, far stricter rules drastically reducing the percentage of a floppy which could be scanned within the next couple of weeks.

I like s_d because it's a great resource for keeping track of books that might interest me. (I find the marketing divisions of the big two completely useless in that regard). Wanking and moaning aside, one of its strengths is that it's got a strong fanbase of people who are pretty savvy about digging out books which are inclusive in their characters and themes - very handy for anyone who's interested in story elements that may not get much press space in the official advertising.

I'm not going to rail against PAD the supervillain here. Copyright law is on Marvel's side. I think Gail Simone's reaction to s_d is the most pragmatic one, but PAD's actions were legally perfectly justifiable. I have to admit though, I was more of a fan of his before this made me aware of his presence on the web. Tbh, I thought he came across as a bit of an arse. I can't help feeling that if I ever again sit down to read Q-Squared I'm going to hear him hissing in my ear about how "ants don't get to condescend to eagles".
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