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Old March 14 2009, 12:22 AM   #211
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

J47 wrote: View Post
But I actually found the "will some people abandon ship?" to be done well, and to be touching.
Personally, it didn't work for me. We had Janeway and Chakotay discussing it for two minutes, then Harry, Torres and Neelix talk about it in the mess hall, and then Janeway and Chakotay talk about it again outside the cargo bay. Only that final scene worked for me.

But this is such an important idea that it needed to be the sole focus of the show. These people are going to spend the rest of their lives travelling back to a home which may not exist by the time they get there; it is only logical that they would discuss this issue at length. It should have been the basis for the second episode of the show, it should not have been shoehorned in here at the end of an episode about Amelia Earhart.

...but I would have enjoyed it more if it had aired as (originally intended) the first Season Finale episode.
I understand and agree, but only if they got rid of the Earhart part of it. It would have worked well as a season finale if done right.
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Old March 14 2009, 04:31 AM   #212
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I like this episode. It had some action, some humor and provided an interesting take on Amelia Earhardt's ultipmate fate as well as the alien abduction stories that pop up now and then.

Sure, finding an old truck floating in space was implausible and the whole "the aliens who abducted us just disappeared" bit was a little too convenient but the moment in the cargo bay when none of the crew decided to leave was priceless.
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Old March 14 2009, 05:57 AM   #213
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

kimc wrote: View Post
Sure, finding an old truck floating in space was implausible and the whole "the aliens who abducted us just disappeared" bit was a little too convenient but the moment in the cargo bay when none of the crew decided to leave was priceless.
Exactly. It was the first time Janeway really got the sense of unity onboard her ship; that her crew, all of them, would follow her to no matter what end.

It was touching.
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Old March 14 2009, 04:26 PM   #214
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post
Sure, finding an old truck floating in space was implausible and the whole "the aliens who abducted us just disappeared" bit was a little too convenient but the moment in the cargo bay when none of the crew decided to leave was priceless.
Exactly. It was the first time Janeway really got the sense of unity onboard her ship; that her crew, all of them, would follow her to no matter what end.

It was touching.
Agreed. Which is why it would have worked better for me as the season 1 finale. That moment felt a bit more earned when it was the closing chapter of a harrowing story. Getting that information in the season premiere (after months of no episodes) felt off kilter to me for some reason. I guess for me, it lost something because it felt like they'd lost the momentum they'd built up over the course of their first season. I don't know how to explain it better, so I should probably just let this one go. lol.

Also, for a fan of Trek, who doesn't like Voyager best - I have to point out something that I was telling my roomie last night. When the first Season of Voyager aired, season 3 of DS9 was airing. Now that all is said and done DS9 is my personal favorite Trek, as most of my friends and family know. But what they didn't know, was that in that first season of Voyager I felt that it was the best Trek ever, and that they'd gotten almost everything right from the get go. Until the season just randomly ended with "Learning Curve". That was the first of many decisions by the network and the writers themselves that pushed me away from a program that I absoultely loved in the beginning. When I told my roomie that, he just couldn't believe it. I just thought I'd share.
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Old March 14 2009, 05:09 PM   #215
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ I was a kid at the time so I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I think when this episode was first shown on Sky One in the UK (I live in Ireland but I get that channel) it was shown as the season one finale and that scene did work as a bookend for the season. However, on the DVDs it is at the beginning of the second season, so I'm going by the DVD placement.
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Old March 14 2009, 05:24 PM   #216
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I also agree with the general sentiment that the dramatic character moments are what redeem this episode from being a complete clunker, and that it seems to work better as a season one finale. I still think 'Janeway meets Amelia Earhart' is no less stupid than 'Kirk meets Lincoln' if not moreso since this was really Earhart and that was just a replica Lincoln.
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Old March 14 2009, 06:35 PM   #217
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Initiations (*½)

Once upon a time an alien and a human are involved in a violent struggle and they end up stranded on a desolate planet together where they learn to put their differences aside and get along. Then it happened again. And again. It became a cliche. Then Voyager took a crack at it.

This episode is made worse by having some strangely convenient plot-devices, such as a planet you can transport to but for some reason a far simpler radio signal can't get through, and Chakotay needing a shuttle to perform a (probably bullshit) Indian ritual which he could later perform in his quarters.

This episode is supposed to introduce us to Kazon culture, but they are depicted as so stupid that I'm surprised they have the mental capacity to stand up. I'm reminded of this poster:



As an interesting side-note, that guy was named after me. I have no proof of this, but I have a good feeling in my gut about it.

We have our first shuttle crash people! Lets take a look at where the counters are currently standing.

Shuttle Crashes: 1
Torpedoes: 1/38
Harry deaths: 1


Edit: I forgot to mention this piece which annoyed me, Chakotay goes on about how much he respects his uniform and how he did a lot to earn it, but no mention is given to how he abandoned it and the only reason he is wearing it now is because he got lost with Voyager. It is like as if the writer completely forgot his background!
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Old March 14 2009, 06:46 PM   #218
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

It's been a long time since I've seen this episode, but I remember not warming to it very much. IMO, the only real saving grace was Aron 'Nog' Eisenberg giving a good performance. The plot was quite staged and the idea was quite cliche, but I did sympathize with his character, probably because I kept seeing Nog.

I think that Chakotay shuttle plothole aside, the first part until they crash had promise to be more interesting. It could have been more interesting had they drawn parallels between rituals Chakotay had to undergo as a kid and what Kar was doing, and created more of a father/son thing - which I think they were trying to do but didn't do well. I think in my mind it should have been more a Chakotay episode than a Kazon episode, if that makes sense.

Still, the second half ends up being 'Enemy Mine' without Dennis Quaid or Lou Gossett Jr. So, it's boring. I think we also find out why Chakotay gets so messed up later on - his medicine bundle is lost with the shuttle!

I can't believe there's still only one Harry death...
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Old March 14 2009, 07:06 PM   #219
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
It's been a long time since I've seen this episode, but I remember not warming to it very much. IMO, the only real saving grace was Aron 'Nog' Eisenberg giving a good performance. The plot was quite staged and the idea was quite cliche, but I did sympathize with his character, probably because I kept seeing Nog.
Part of the problem I had with this episode is that I couldn't not see Nog. Nog was such a memorable character who grew into one of the great characters on DS9, and I just can't seen Aron Eisenberg as anybody else. It would be as weird as Patrick Stewart showing up at some point.

I think that Chakotay shuttle plothole aside, the first part until they crash had promise to be more interesting.
It did have potential, but the Kazon just come across as stupid Klingons. If the Kazon had been more interesting as a culture then this episode would have worked much better.

I think we also find out why Chakotay gets so messed up later on - his medicine bundle is lost with the shuttle!
Actually Chakotay had his medicine bundle at the end when he was on Voyager, but you are right when you say that it should have been blown up in the shuttle crash. I guess he had two.
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Old March 14 2009, 07:22 PM   #220
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
It's been a long time since I've seen this episode, but I remember not warming to it very much. IMO, the only real saving grace was Aron 'Nog' Eisenberg giving a good performance. The plot was quite staged and the idea was quite cliche, but I did sympathize with his character, probably because I kept seeing Nog.
Part of the problem I had with this episode is that I couldn't not see Nog. Nog was such a memorable character who grew into one of the great characters on DS9, and I just can't seen Aron Eisenberg as anybody else. It would be as weird as Patrick Stewart showing up at some point.
Yeah, agreed.

I think that Chakotay shuttle plothole aside, the first part until they crash had promise to be more interesting.
It did have potential, but the Kazon just come across as stupid Klingons. If the Kazon had been more interesting as a culture then this episode would have worked much better.
Also agreed. Stupid, honor-less Klingons.

Oh. I know. Maybe they should have patterned the Kazon beliefs more on a hybrid Native American culture? Then, with a Native American first officer with a tied down tribe (), there might have been some potential for interesting contrast and maybe sympathy. The Trabe then become the white man who treated them like shit, only in the Delta Quadrant the Trabe got comeuppance.

I think we also find out why Chakotay gets so messed up later on - his medicine bundle is lost with the shuttle!
Actually Chakotay had his medicine bundle at the end when he was on Voyager, but you are right when you say that it should have been blown up in the shuttle crash. I guess he had two.
Exactly, he had to replicate a new one so it didn't work properly and that's why his character seems to lose his way and fall into the background later on. What, you think he's breaking tradition and is the only Starfleet officer in history who had a pocket or something?
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Old March 15 2009, 10:56 AM   #221
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

RAMA wrote: View Post
I watched "The Gift" the other day...not an episode I ever thought of much. I was really impressed, it was a tight script, with good development for 2 characters. Not bad this Voyager..

RAMA
I hate "The Gift". Horrible episode with a ridiculous plot. One of Voyager's worst.
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Old March 15 2009, 11:10 AM   #222
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

As for "The 37's", I like that episode. OK, some flaws here and there, like the truck in space and the whole plot with Voyager running into a bunch of abducted aliens and a human colony in the Delta Quadrant is a bit over the top. But still a good episode.

What I would have liked is that their stay on that planet would have lasted for two-three episodes with some crewmembers really considering staying there, maybe some adventures with helping the people on the planet defend themselves against Kazon, Vidiians or other hostile species.

The episode also contains one of Voyager's finest moments. The scene where Janeway and Chakotay are entering the cargo bay to say goodbye to those who had decided to stay on the planet and there's no one there.

Wonderful scene! And yes, it was supposed to be the season 1 finale. As a matter of fact, the stardates for the episode is a season 1 stardate and in most European countries the episode (together with "Projections, Elogium and Twisted) were aired as season 1 episodes. Personally I do regard those episodes as season 1 episodes because of the stardates and the production.

As for "Initiations", I do find that a good episode as well. I like the interaction between Chakotay and Kar and it also give us a good insight in Kazon culture. The episode also has some very exciting moments. However, some flaws here too, as when Chakotay was out in a shuttle to practise his religion. Couldn't he had done that in his quarters, as he usually did. Besides that, they should have come up with a real tribe and real religious customs for him.

My points for the episodes:

The 37's: 3 points out of 5

Initiations: 3 points out of 5
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Old March 15 2009, 04:35 PM   #223
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^I'm with you Lynx on your points. Both episodes were definitely worth of 3/5.
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Old March 15 2009, 05:01 PM   #224
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I rate Voyager episodes on a completely different scale than I do the other Treks. When I rate a Voyager episode as good or great, I mean that it's good or great for a Voyager episode - not necessarily as a Trek episode. I often find myself overlooking inane plot devices in a Voyager episode that I wouldn't forgive in another Trek. But even grading on a curve I find 'Initiations' sub par. I like it far less than any Season 1 episodes, and I remember being very disappointed as a viewer with these early Season 2 efforts, which were thankfully surpassed with later installments - it just took a while to get to better material. As was mentioned previously, I would grade 'The 37's' slightly higher, but only because of the emotional pay off from previous stories, and the fun landing sequence, which at the time was a first. But I thought the Kazon came off terribly in 'Initiations'. I respected the idea of exploring Kazon culture, since they were apparently sticking around, I just thought this first attempt to deepen them was a huge failure, and is another example of a Trek episode that I like to pretend never happened.
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Old March 15 2009, 05:07 PM   #225
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

neogothboy74 wrote: View Post
I rate Voyager episodes on a completely different scale than I do the other Treks. When I rate a Voyager episode as good or great, I mean that it's good or great for a Voyager episode - not necessarily as a Trek episode. I often find myself overlooking inane plot devices in a Voyager episode that I wouldn't forgive in another Trek. But even grading on a curve I find 'Initiations' sub par. I like it far less than any Season 1 episodes, and I remember being very disappointed as a viewer with these early Season 2 efforts, which were thankfully surpassed with later installments - it just took a while to get to better material. As was mentioned previously, I would grade 'The 37's' slightly higher, but only because of the emotional pay off from previous stories, and the fun landing sequence, which at the time was a first. But I thought the Kazon came off terribly in 'Initiations'. I respected the idea of exploring Kazon culture, since they were apparently sticking around, I just thought this first attempt to deepen them was a huge failure, and is another example of a Trek episode that I like to pretend never happened.
Well said. I may have to try your modified scale for my Voyager and Enterprise viewings and see if it works.
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