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Old March 8 2009, 02:01 PM   #16
DavidFalkayn
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

You do have a very solid take on Cardassian characterization--you make them truly different while at the same time giving us a frame of reference where we can understand them. I'm afraid I'm not up on the novels--never enough time.

Well done, sir. I'm glad I caught this!
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Old March 8 2009, 09:57 PM   #17
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
I...wouldn't normally bump a thread, but I'm thinking this story might've gotten lost in the shuffle.
I'm glad you did. It was most enjoyable.

I was surprised you didn't have him solve the puzzle, though. Maybe a little over-the-top, but I could've seen it working.
Thank you for reading.

I did give some thought to the idea of letting Berat solve the puzzle--but I ended up dismissing it for three reasons. First, in-universe, the Altonian brain teaser (as we saw on DS9) is something that requires extreme relaxation to solve...theta waves, specifically. Berat's mind is in MUCH too excited a state, especially riding that high at the end, for him to get even close. Even someone without his neurological condition wouldn't have had a shot at that point.

(As for Dax, she'd been working on the puzzle for 140 years--but I have this suspicion that the unique interactions between symbiont and host presented an additional challenge, much as Berat's neurological impairment complicates his own attempt.)

Second, it would've seemed rather cliched to me, a little too "neat"...but the third reason was actually the most important one to me.

I felt, in a lot of ways, it would have undermined the point Berat was making in his monologue: he does not HAVE to solve it. He does not HAVE to be normally-abled to have pride in who he is AS he is. He might eventually pull it off someday--but that's not something I feel like I ever need to tell. He may or may not. But that he keeps moving forward--that he will not be swayed--that is the important thing. THAT is where his pride comes from, and what makes him so formidable

DavidFalkayn wrote: View Post
You do have a very solid take on Cardassian characterization--you make them truly different while at the same time giving us a frame of reference where we can understand them. I'm afraid I'm not up on the novels--never enough time.

Well done, sir. I'm glad I caught this!
Glad you enjoyed it--thank you for reading!
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Old March 8 2009, 10:09 PM   #18
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

Nothing much more I can say here. It has all been said.

I loved this great little vignette and I can't wait for you to write some more. You truly have a talent for taking a little world and making it large. We've seen so little of true Cardassian culture, only snippets here and there, and you've done a great job of scaling it out and making it a joy to read.

Please submit a standard story to Pocket. Perhaps one day you can stand alongside Ms Duane with your Cardassians.
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Old March 8 2009, 10:24 PM   #19
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

If the situation at Pocket were more like it was during the post-TOS days before TNG, where imagination were allowed and all of the stories weren't folded into one massive storyline, I would give it thought. Now, I do enjoy picking up stuff from the officially-licensed expanded universe...but I feel like I would be sacrificing WAY too much freedom to imagine them as I like.

Add to that the fact that I would rather accept/ignore VOY and ENT as I please...I just don't want to do that.

But I appreciate the thought very much.
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Old March 8 2009, 11:13 PM   #20
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
I...wouldn't normally bump a thread, but I'm thinking this story might've gotten lost in the shuffle.
I'm glad you did. It was most enjoyable.

I was surprised you didn't have him solve the puzzle, though. Maybe a little over-the-top, but I could've seen it working.
Thank you for reading.
Thank you for writing.

I did give some thought to the idea of letting Berat solve the puzzle--but I ended up dismissing it for three reasons. First, in-universe, the Altonian brain teaser (as we saw on DS9) is something that requires extreme relaxation to solve...theta waves, specifically. Berat's mind is in MUCH too excited a state, especially riding that high at the end, for him to get even close. Even someone without his neurological condition wouldn't have had a shot at that point.

(As for Dax, she'd been working on the puzzle for 140 years--but I have this suspicion that the unique interactions between symbiont and host presented an additional challenge, much as Berat's neurological impairment complicates his own attempt.)

Second, it would've seemed rather cliched to me, a little too "neat"...but the third reason was actually the most important one to me.

I felt, in a lot of ways, it would have undermined the point Berat was making in his monologue: he does not HAVE to solve it. He does not HAVE to be normally-abled to have pride in who he is AS he is. He might eventually pull it off someday--but that's not something I feel like I ever need to tell. He may or may not. But that he keeps moving forward--that he will not be swayed--that is the important thing. THAT is where his pride comes from, and what makes him so formidable
Aw, but it would've been cute.

No, I definitely see your point and you were right to steer clear of the easy road. I could maybe even see Berat being depressed if he ever did solve it... until he'd moved on to something more challenging.

And fwiw, I forgot that was even a canon device.
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Old March 9 2009, 02:57 AM   #21
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Marie--For a Cardassian, victory is about two things: the physical defeat of the enemy AND the removal of the threat. The latter you accomplish not just by crushing your enemy but by making them see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. Given the restrictions on Jem'Hadar thought processes, there is no way to accomplish that, no incentive to "reason."
I remember Dukat trying to explain that to Weyoun, and Weyoun was so sadistic he just didn't get it. At least, the latter part. Not that Dukat was a good guy, but he knew some stuff... in an odd way.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
(In the case of the Vorta--there are restrictions, yes...but since the Vorta were left with a bit more in the terms of creative thought processes than the Jem'Hadar, there WAS the option of making Dasreen see in his final moments just how wrong he'd been!)

Weyoun deferred to Dukat, but he didn't have any problem being a jackass towards Damar, who he perceived as weak. Which Damar was as long as he had his drinking problem. But Weyoun failed to recognize there would come a point he'd end up pushing Damar too far and bringing out a much stronger side of him.

Dasreen's behavior...first there's rank. Weyoun was, at least, dealing with the supposed leader of the Cardassian Union and wanted the image of an equal alliance (which was, of course, a total lie). Even with Damar he kept up that fašade at first. Dasreen is dealing with one of the youngest guls in the Cardassian Guard--not someone he has to maintain any illusion of equality with.
I was surprised how far Weyoun let himself get pushed around- all those sensitive databases... I guess with Jem'Hadar in the room or Breen... he needed more soldiers at his side. But you're right, Weyoun had "issues" with Dukat, so Dasreen wouldn't have qualms bickering with someone young, who had a disability. *shakes fist*

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
And then there are Dasreen's other, more disgusting reasons to have a contemptuous attitude towards Gul Berat. Add all that together, and it made sense for Dasreen to behave in a truly outrageous, if not outright hideous manner.

I felt awful writing those things. The outrage, disgust, and mortification Berat felt, I felt as I wrote. My ears were literally burning!
Dasreen went waaaay to far, by leaps and bounds. It's interesting what they say about bullies, of which Vorta are of course, they're cowards- even in the presence of Jem'Hadar. He didn't have anything to lean on besides cutting words.
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Old March 9 2009, 06:07 AM   #22
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Aw, but it would've been cute.
Yeah...but that's exactly what I wanted to avoid.

No, I definitely see your point and you were right to steer clear of the easy road. I could maybe even see Berat being depressed if he ever did solve it... until he'd moved on to something more challenging.

And fwiw, I forgot that was even a canon device.
I don't think Berat would be depressed. I think he would be really thrilled if he pulled it off, especially because of the huge challenge it represented.

But I think leaving it unclear whether he ever will solve it is the best way...because his pride and his worth simply aren't defined that way--and shouldn't be.

Marie1 wrote: View Post
I was surprised how far Weyoun let himself get pushed around- all those sensitive databases... I guess with Jem'Hadar in the room or Breen... he needed more soldiers at his side. But you're right, Weyoun had "issues" with Dukat, so Dasreen wouldn't have qualms bickering with someone young, who had a disability. *shakes fist*
Dukat definitely seemed able to push back against Weyoun, at least to some extent--and I think that was by virtue of his position. But with Weyoun, I think we started to see him on the path towards becoming like Dasreen. The further Damar deteriorated, the nastier and more openly contemptuous he became. But Dasreen...he didn't even have a modicum of respect to be destroyed. I think he only learned respect in those very last seconds, when he realized he'd been tricked!

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Dasreen went waaaay to far, by leaps and bounds. It's interesting what they say about bullies, of which Vorta are of course, they're cowards- even in the presence of Jem'Hadar. He didn't have anything to lean on besides cutting words.
The funny thing is this. If you discard the inner characters of each, Dasreen should've been the one holding all the cards. But I think you're right about what a coward he was...he was so insecure about the idea of losing a simple recreational game in front of the Jem'Hadar that he let himself be goaded into doing something stupid and reckless even over said Jem'Hadar's advice.
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Old March 10 2009, 02:32 AM   #23
Marie1
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Aw, but it would've been cute.
Yeah...but that's exactly what I wanted to avoid.
You? Avoiding something cute on the subject of Cardassians? Who are you?? What have you done with Nerys!? *pulls out Kar'takin*

Marie1 wrote: View Post
I was surprised how far Weyoun let himself get pushed around- all those sensitive databases... I guess with Jem'Hadar in the room or Breen... he needed more soldiers at his side. But you're right, Weyoun had "issues" with Dukat, so Dasreen wouldn't have qualms bickering with someone young, who had a disability. *shakes fist*
Dukat definitely seemed able to push back against Weyoun, at least to some extent--and I think that was by virtue of his position. But with Weyoun, I think we started to see him on the path towards becoming like Dasreen. The further Damar deteriorated, the nastier and more openly contemptuous he became. But Dasreen...he didn't even have a modicum of respect to be destroyed. I think he only learned respect in those very last seconds, when he realized he'd been tricked!
I found his dialogue fascinating though. It's on character... or species. And I've always found it interesting because Vorta are supposed to be super inquisitive... but you don't learn new things by being a jerk to the people who can teach you... usually.

Dasreen went waaaay to far, by leaps and bounds. It's interesting what they say about bullies, of which Vorta are of course, they're cowards- even in the presence of Jem'Hadar. He didn't have anything to lean on besides cutting words.
The funny thing is this. If you discard the inner characters of each, Dasreen should've been the one holding all the cards. But I think you're right about what a coward he was...he was so insecure about the idea of losing a simple recreational game in front of the Jem'Hadar that he let himself be goaded into doing something stupid and reckless even over said Jem'Hadar's advice.
And the lesson: Always, always listen to your Jem'Hadar...
But I find it so funny... such a lack of common sense, and he walked into that like... on ice on a hill! It was fun.
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Old March 10 2009, 03:02 AM   #24
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

It's always good to see a smug vorta get their just desserts. I think that's something both Jem'har and Cardassians can agree on!
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Old March 10 2009, 03:07 AM   #25
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

^ We, the Jem'Hadar, agree.
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Old March 10 2009, 03:16 AM   #26
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

But what if the Founders tell you not to?
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Old March 10 2009, 03:39 AM   #27
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

Marie1 wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Aw, but it would've been cute.
Yeah...but that's exactly what I wanted to avoid.
You? Avoiding something cute on the subject of Cardassians? Who are you?? What have you done with Nerys!? *pulls out Kar'takin*
Hey, I want people to empathize with my Cardassian characters (the ones worthy of it, of course)...but cute? Well...not this storyline, at least.

I found his dialogue fascinating though. It's on character... or species. And I've always found it interesting because Vorta are supposed to be super inquisitive... but you don't learn new things by being a jerk to the people who can teach you... usually.
They do seem inquisitive--but only when they feel like they HAVE something to learn. Dasreen stupidly assumed Berat's knowledge and skills meant nothing because of the wrapping they came in.

And the lesson: Always, always listen to your Jem'Hadar...
But I find it so funny... such a lack of common sense, and he walked into that like... on ice on a hill! It was fun.
Like ice on a hill...and considering some of the idiot drivers in my city any time we get winter weather, that's a VERY apt comparison. Especially with the snooty ones who have SUVs and assume they are somehow exempt from the laws of physics because they have 4-wheel drive and a vehicle that takes up the whole damn lane.
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Old March 10 2009, 07:44 AM   #28
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

^I'm full of shame because I got my car stuck in an embankment when it snowed here last week. It turns out I am the idiot driver I'm always complaining about. I have a lot of to reexamine.

In fairness, though, it was a three mile per hour collision which didn't even scatch the paint. Although I suspect I'd have frozen to death if someone hadn't pulled the car out.
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Old March 13 2009, 01:28 AM   #29
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Re: Star Trek: Sigils and Unions--"Let He Who Has Eyes See" (Short Sto

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
But what if the Founders tell you not to?
Pfft, you mean the Great Lake? They can go for a swim. I don't answer to the Flounders...

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
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Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post

Yeah...but that's exactly what I wanted to avoid.
You? Avoiding something cute on the subject of Cardassians? Who are you?? What have you done with Nerys!? *pulls out Kar'takin*
Hey, I want people to empathize with my Cardassian characters (the ones worthy of it, of course)...but cute? Well...not this storyline, at least.
Continues peering at this Nerys suspiciously...

I found his dialogue fascinating though. It's on character... or species. And I've always found it interesting because Vorta are supposed to be super inquisitive... but you don't learn new things by being a jerk to the people who can teach you... usually.
They do seem inquisitive--but only when they feel like they HAVE something to learn. Dasreen stupidly assumed Berat's knowledge and skills meant nothing because of the wrapping they came in.
A mistake people make now... which is silly of them.

And the lesson: Always, always listen to your Jem'Hadar...
But I find it so funny... such a lack of common sense, and he walked into that like... on ice on a hill! It was fun.
Like ice on a hill...and considering some of the idiot drivers in my city any time we get winter weather, that's a VERY apt comparison. Especially with the snooty ones who have SUVs and assume they are somehow exempt from the laws of physics because they have 4-wheel drive and a vehicle that takes up the whole damn lane.
Myasishchev wrote: View Post
^I'm full of shame because I got my car stuck in an embankment when it snowed here last week. It turns out I am the idiot driver I'm always complaining about. I have a lot of to reexamine.

In fairness, though, it was a three mile per hour collision which didn't even scatch the paint. Although I suspect I'd have frozen to death if someone hadn't pulled the car out.

Ugh!! Here too! And yet they drive like it's summer, will try to race you in cars not ready for winter... someone in a truck coming the opposite way (plenty of room, til he sped up) tried to run over me when a car in my lane pulled half off the road and I had to pass, I had to swerve and make the car fishtail... then when I get to my driveway soon after, the truck behind me was sitting on my bumper. How stupid. The next day, the same truck made a big show of racing me and getting caught in the traffic ahead of us... Moron.
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