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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old March 5 2009, 03:38 AM   #16
Hober Mallow
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Re: STNG continues on in Bluray..with great packaging!

Random Canadian wrote: View Post
I'm curious; if they did release it on Blu-Ray, would there be any quality improvements to the original material? IIRC, one of the reasons they were able to do TOS on HD-DVD and get quality improvement was that they originally shot the material on film, instead of video tape which is what is normally used for tv shows.
All Star Trek shows, and every dramatic show you can think of, was filmed on film. Videotape traditionally was only used for things like soap operas and sitcoms (although modern American sitcoms use film now).
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Old March 5 2009, 05:36 AM   #17
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Re: STNG continues on in Bluray..with great packaging!

Ah, but they were edited on videotape, which allowed for cheaper and faster editing, but as we are finding out, is terrible for digital conversion.
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Old March 8 2009, 06:44 AM   #18
jefferiestubes8
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Re: STNG continues on in Bluray..with great packaging!

While the title of this thread is misleading there are other places where is HAS been discussed.

'Star Trek TNG remastered for HD- tests done -future '
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1126134

If Paramount can make money on it they may.
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Old March 9 2009, 07:38 AM   #19
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Re: STNG continues on in Bluray..with great packaging!

TNG would look pretty bad in HD. It looks bad enough on DVD, very blurry, it's hard to describe but you all know what I mean. Hell, I'd say the unremastered versions of TOS are crisper (though certainly far more scratchy and grainy). Would love to see them do a good job of it though without having to redo all of the effects (unless they can keep them true to the original effects, unlike TOSR which I kinda disliked).
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Old March 9 2009, 02:16 PM   #20
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Re: STNG continues on in Bluray..with great packaging!

Geckothan wrote: View Post
TNG would look pretty bad in HD. It looks bad enough on DVD, very blurry, it's hard to describe but you all know what I mean. Hell, I'd say the unremastered versions of TOS are crisper (though certainly far more scratchy and grainy). Would love to see them do a good job of it though without having to redo all of the effects (unless they can keep them true to the original effects, unlike TOSR which I kinda disliked).
It only looks bad because it was posted on low-res NTSC video, so it would be very surprising if the TOS DVDs didn't look better. If they could go back to the original 35mm negatives, TNG could look amazing.

The issue is cost - full seasons might be prohibitive, but maybe they could test the water by doing Encounter at Farpoint, Best of Both Worlds and All Good Things (or whatever) in the style of the Fan Collective DVDs. I'd love to see what it looks like anyway.
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Old March 9 2009, 05:24 PM   #21
jefferiestubes8
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ST:TNG on Blu-Ray visual effects remastering [technical]

Tomalak wrote: View Post
It only looks bad because it was posted on low-res NTSC video,...If they could go back to the original 35mm negatives, TNG could look amazing.
"They further revealed that tests had been done for a possible future Star Trek: The Next Generation - Remastered effort."
-Bill Hunt of The Digital Bits gave us his two cents at
San Diego Comic Con, 2006
http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=7762

Obviously that would be a test done from the scanning of the 35mm original camera negative to HD tape at 1080/24p.
In 1987 the 35mm telecine to standard definition video (480i) options were not great especially when recording to 1" analog videotape. Today's telecine machines working at 2k resolution really pull so much more detail and information out of camera negatives.
The costs _ARE_ very high to re-edit a show when it is not telecined as from a cut negative that was conformed (such as "ER" and "NYPD Blue" and "ST:TOS" were.) If Paramount can make a profit on fan collective remaster packages maybe they will put them out on Blu-Ray. 7 full seasons are just not worth the effort to them.

It probably is unlikely that the CGI effects projects themselves from 1987-1994 were archived, even remain accessible, or are able to be imported into todays software due to Operating Systems and software versions.
Most likely if CGI effects were recreated in HD Eden FX's Gabriel Kerner's model would be used with the current NewTek LightWave 3D v9 software to render out to 1080/24p.

Ron Moore one of the veterans of ST:TNG digital visual effects mentioned his effects on ST:TNG were created [at 29.97fps] without the 3:2 pulldown mimicing a 24fps-film-to-videotape-look.
according to the Millimeter.com March 2002 article on "ST:Enterprise" CGI effects. This is only part of the reason why the digital CGI work done on ST:TNG looked bad.

If they do decide to do it I sure hope the visual effects house contracted has access to the original Andrew Probert designs of the NCC-1701-D as well as the 3-D CGI model
as mentioned here:
ILM's John Knoll also built a CGI Electric Image model of the Enterprise-D for the 1994 film Star Trek Generations. That model was transferred to LightWave and used to create various Galaxy-class starships in episodes of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and in the Star Trek: Voyager episode "Timeless". Eden FX's Gabriel Kerner built a new CGI LightWave model for the Enterprise-D's appearance in Star Trek: Enterprise's series finale, "These Are the Voyages...".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701-D)

Okay that would be the CGI model used in 1987 season 1 and future seasons 2-7, the one built by John Knoll, the one built by Gabriel Kerner as all official TV or cinema NCC-1701-Ds. I will not count the NCC-1701-Ds created for any videogames by the videogame developers.
3 different models created of the Enterprise-D. Only one CGI model was actually used on the TNG television series I believe.

One would think the two CGI models created in 1994 by John Knoll and 2005 by Gabriel Kerner would both be up to the detail level for an HD render. Surely one of those two models could be transferred to current CGI software.

If you want a look at what the recreated and rerendered Enterprise-D would look like on any Blu-Ray remaster as far as lighting, shading, and small design differences than the original TNG CGI NCC-1701-D then check out Enterprise-D's appearance in Star Trek: Enterprise's series finale, "These Are the Voyages..." for a pretty good idea (even if only in standard def.)
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Old March 10 2009, 02:09 AM   #22
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Re: ST:TNG on Blu-Ray visual effects remastering [technical]

Interesting details! Mostly familiar, but its still a bit depressing. TOS-R spurred interest amongst fans in TOS (the TOS forum came alive) and it would do the same for STNG.
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Old March 10 2009, 02:37 AM   #23
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Re: ST:TNG on Blu-Ray visual effects remastering [technical]

How long did it take to complete the remastering for TOS? Doing this for TNG might seem like a lot, but there's only slightly more than twice the amount of episodes. Perhaps remastering can be farmed out to two or more different outfits, each of which would get a certain number of episodes to do?
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Old March 10 2009, 03:04 AM   #24
jefferiestubes8
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ST:TNG potential remastering

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
How long did it take to complete the remastering for TOS? Doing this for TNG might seem like a lot, but there's only slightly more than twice the amount of episodes.
I don't think you realize the amount of work it would take. TNG was not a cut negative show that was archived on a shelf in film cans. They edited on video and only have 480i standard definition video masters. They would need to retelecine, re-edit the show, redo all the visual effects in HD. for SEVEN SEASONS!

please see this thread for additional info on it:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...-versions.html

Best-of fan collective sets maybe.
Paramount Home Entertainment have already sold separate season DVDs and then the entire ST:TNG series DVDs packaged together. Will ST fans really be up for shelling out for this series? The most noticeable differences will be the first 2 seasons as they were mastered to 1" analog videotape in 1987-1989.
If you look at season 3 in 1989-1990 when it was mastered to D-2 composite digital video tape it looked the same then as it does today as due to the nature of digital video tape. The image is stored exactly as it was converted from analog to digital. It doesn't matter if it was stored 5 minutes or 20 years. It plays back the same image that was recorded.
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Old March 10 2009, 03:35 AM   #25
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Re: ST:TNG potential remastering

jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
How long did it take to complete the remastering for TOS? Doing this for TNG might seem like a lot, but there's only slightly more than twice the amount of episodes.
I don't think you realize the amount of work it would take. TNG was not a cut negative show that was archived on a shelf in film cans. They edited on video and only have 480i standard definition video masters. They would need to retelecine, re-edit the show, redo all the visual effects in HD. for SEVEN SEASONS!

please see this thread for additional info on it:
www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/ht-software-high-definition/259966-star-trek-tng-possible-hd-versions.html

Best-of fan collective sets maybe.
Paramount Home Entertainment have already sold separate season DVDs and then the entire ST:TNG series DVDs packaged together. Will ST fans really be up for shelling out for this series? The most noticeable differences will be the first 2 seasons as they were mastered to 1" analog videotape in 1987-1989.
If you look at season 3 in 1989-1990 when it was mastered to D-2 composite digital video tape it looked the same then as it does today as due to the nature of digital video tape. The image is stored exactly as it was converted from analog to digital. It doesn't matter if it was stored 5 minutes or 20 years. It plays back the same image that was recorded.
NOW THERE'S AN IDEA! A few collectors sets! I would go for that. Great idea!
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Old March 10 2009, 04:31 AM   #26
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Re: ST:TNG potential remastering

jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
They would need to retelecine, re-edit the show, redo all the visual effects in HD. for SEVEN SEASONS!
They had to redo all the effects for TOS, didn't they? True, that was only three seasons, but still they managed.
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Old March 10 2009, 09:04 AM   #27
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Re: STNG continues on in Bluray..with great packaging!

Redoing the effects work for TNG would probably be the easy part. The real monster is to go back to the original film elements and re-edit the episodes. The only complete versions of any of the TNG episodes are on SD video, which, as stated, don't even look so great on regular DVD. They'd have to dig out the original 35mm film, then find the original editing notes--if they even exist anymore--dropping in new effects as needed. Essential they would have to completely redo the post-production of every single episode. This would be a huge amount of work and a huge investment of resources. And if those editing notes don't exist then the best they could do would be to create approximations of the original episodes.
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Old March 10 2009, 12:12 PM   #28
jefferiestubes8
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TNG potential remastering

Mike Farley wrote: View Post
Redoing the effects work for TNG would probably be the easy part. The real monster is to go back to the original film elements and re-edit the episodes.

They'd have to dig out the original 35mm film, then find the original editing notes--if they even exist anymore
Mike points out the reality here.
ST:TNG was a weekly TV show. say you had a feature film that won Academy Awards the next year after it was shot. All of the stuff would be saved as it was in the case of things that were re-edited like "Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut" or "Apocalypse Now: Redux".
For Paramount to Archive the original camera negative even though it was not a cut negative show would mean they would have had to archive all of it, or at least the circled takes. Perhaps the circled takes were then cut and assembled together for archiving. Highly doubtful.
If it were edited on a nonlinear editor the old operating systems and software versions would not be readable today. The AVID editing system was not in use in 1987 and no film edgecode was saved like it is on a feature film when it does have its negative cut and then retelecined to 2k or 4k for conforming.
Since in 2006 it was mentioned that CBS Paramount Television did some tests of remastering to HD this show it would lead me to believe they did store the original camera negative. and attempted a HD telecine of part of a show from season 1 (originally mastered to 1" analog videotape) and maybe part of the show from season 3 or later (originally mastered to D2 composite digital video tape) along with uprezzing the CGI original effects to HD to see how they would hold up.

Two of the oldest TV shows that had syndication for years were "I Love Lucy" and "The Twilight Zone" (1959-1964) . Both were cut negative shows and like were fairly straightforward to retelecine, dustbust, and clean up.
'The Twilight Zone Complete Definitive Collection' mastered recently in 2006 utilising the original camera negatives in telecine to HD. That would be 7 years older than ST:TOS and in black and white but it does show what is possible when you transfer an old TV show from the original camera negative. It's on DVD but you gotta figure they will put it out on Blu-Ray in HD eventually.
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Old March 10 2009, 01:32 PM   #29
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Re: TNG potential remastering

jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
Since in 2006 it was mentioned that CBS Paramount Television did some tests of remastering to HD this show it would lead me to believe they did store the original camera negative. and attempted a HD telecine of part of a show from season 1 (originally mastered to 1" analog videotape) and maybe part of the show from season 3 or later (originally mastered to D2 composite digital video tape) along with uprezzing the CGI original effects to HD to see how they would hold up.
From what I recall, those tests were said to merely involve upscaling the SD tapes to see if they could "get away with it". I'd be surprised if they met with any great success.
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Old March 10 2009, 01:50 PM   #30
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TNG tests and PQ of DVD from original masters

Tomalak wrote: View Post
From what I recall, those tests were said to merely involve upscaling the SD tapes to see if they could "get away with it". I'd be surprised if they met with any great success.
Get away with it?!
I just watched TNG Episode #252 'Descent: Part I' last night on DVD on a 26" standard def. TV. It looked pretty soft and bad to me. Not just the darkly lit Borg ship but the brightly lit TNG Enterprise-D closeups on Patrick Stewart.

There is no way they are gonna upscale the video from those masters and pass it off as HD on a Blu-Ray. TNT does that on their TNTHD channel and also stretches 4:3 standard def. content. It's one thing when a broadcaster fills time with a non-HD show but for Paramount/CBS to try to _SELL_ a product that has been sold to fans on VHS and DVD already from those videotape masters dating back to 1987.
It will either live on DVD as seasons like ST:Voyager always will or they will start with fan collective sets first to gauge customer interest in HD Blu-Ray purchases of TNG.
Also Blu-Ray is still a new format. It was only in January of 2008 that the format was considered THE next consumer video format as HD. In 2009 they will release most of the feature films and ST:TOS on Blu-Ray all in HD.
If they do decide to do it that probably wouldn't be on a store shelf for 18 months. In the mean time they will release TOS seasons 2 & 3 probably in 2010.

Last edited by jefferiestubes8; March 10 2009 at 02:01 PM.
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