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Old March 5 2009, 07:41 PM   #16
Guy Gardener
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
Icelanders manage OK without surnames. They use patronymic (or sometimes matronymic) instead.
I was told that that was irrelevant since due to some odd incidents of breeding patterns they tried to make the phone book a couple decades back and discoverd that of the millions of people listed, that predominantly the bulk of them only had four different (apocryphal story, let it go.) surnames so the powers that be, just said "fuck it" to save money on ink.

I mean historically surnames are only there to stop inbreeding, pronounce a profession or help the tax collector keep track of who is running away from his open purse.God knows where the pride comes from.
Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
I

If Chakotay used this method and called his son Clyde, his son would be known as Clyde Chakotayson. If his daighter was Kathryn, she would be known as Kathryn Chakotaydaughter. Or the children might use their mother's first name as a matronymic.

Women are known all their lives by the name their were given at birth and never take the husbands' names.

Of course, in all likelihood, Chakotay would give his some an Indian name.

Neelix and Tuvok don't have last names.
Tuvok is married. But then Vulcans get engaged shortly after birth. There might some appendage, affectation to the name then abouts, so that never "child" forgets what their family expects of them?

Tachyon wrote: View Post
Or perhaps Chakotay's "full name" is Chakotay Son Of Kolpak. In this case his son's name would be, for instance, Clyde Son Of Chakotay.
HILARIOUS!

Seven was not too fond of her given name, so perhaps her name remained as Seven Of Nine when she would have married Chakotay.
I usually roll my eyes 10 generations atfer the fact (Although I've only ever seen this said in fiction on TV and Movies, although I 'm just young enough to have no recollection of seeing Roots, but Chappel did a hilarious pistake on the Kunta Kinta whipping scene.) that the Dutch snared their ancestors up in a net and ferried them off to America, that some one says "That is my slave name!" However in sevens case, that's pretty damn acurate.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
destro wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Why should a woman take the last name of his husband? I know it's a surprise to some, but among all western nations, it's only in the US that it's still customary.
Uh, there are MANY countries where this is customary.

Personally I don't care either way, but you're just flat out wrong here.
In the world, you are right. But in the western hemisphere, only Anglophone nations still do that, and in the UK it's a declining trend (if I remember correctly). Honestly, I don't know about Australia and New Zealand.
I'm looking about out my window and I can smell the after woft of plenty of pretentious wankers who need to prove that they are not cattle, but over all marriage is just a lark and name changing is just part of the game, though I have a Dutch friend who was just overjoyed to take on an English sounding name so that the natives here would stop butchering her own mother tongue. However half a world away and 5 years later, she remarried an immigrant Ducth fellow and shes back to square one with a new unpronounceable name all the stupid Kiwi's can't quite get their tongue around.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I got Fiddler on the roof hammering through my memories right now.

"Tradition! tradition!"
Yeah, but tradition of who? Neither Seven nor Chakotay apparently belong to culture where it's customary for the wife to assume the surname of the husband, or vice versa. You are applying a tradition to people that do not share it.
I defy you to prove to me that Seven of nine or Chuckles are not early 20th century Hasidic Jews?

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
Neelix and Tuvok don't have last names.
Vulcan family names are also confusing. Apparently the use the patronymic (Spock, son of Sarek), and in very formal occasion the double patronymic (Sarek, child of Skon, child of Solkar). Many novels assume that they have clan or family names. It could be the "almost unpronunciable for a human" name that Spock never told to Leila Kalomi, or the one that Spock's mother had difficulties to learn in Journey to Babel.

About Talaxian names, I do not want to know.
Neelix is probably on the run for charges of pedophilia, gotta keep his ears low, although since they call him Neelix and Mr. Neelix depending on the occasion, maybe his name is Neelix Neelix? The Hedgehog so hedgehoggy they named him twice?
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Old March 5 2009, 08:37 PM   #17
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

I was told that that was irrelevant since due to some odd incidents of breeding patterns they tried to make the phone book a couple decades back and discoverd that of the millions of people listed, that predominantly the bulk of them only had four different (apocryphal story, let it go.) surnames so the powers that be, just said "fuck it" to save money on ink.
I think it is Denmark who have a large percentage of people sharing only a few surnames. I know one such name is Hansen - which is shared by about 4.3% of teh Danish population.

However the patronymic seems to work well in Iceland, aprtky because of Iceland's small population (about 300,000 people).

The Iceland phone book lists people under their first name, than theire middle name and lastly their patronymic. The phonebook also lists people's occupation to make it easier to determine if you have the right person.
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Old March 5 2009, 09:50 PM   #18
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

This reminds me of the exchange between Tom and B'elanna right after their wedding. It went something like:
TOM: So, B'Elanna Paris... Has a nice ring to it.
B'ELANNA: Actually, I kind of like the sound of Tom Torres.
TOM: You're joking.
B'ELANNA: Why not? It is the 24th century, you know.

So it seems couples are still having debates about this hundreds of years from now.

To the poster who said that the U.S. is the only Western country where women taking their husbands' names is still common, it still happens often here in Canada too. Personally, I think it's an archaic custom, but as I'm unlikely to ever get married, it's one I won't have to deal with anyway.

As for the original topic... eh, I don't see Seven changing her name if she marries Chakotay. And who knows what is typically done in Chakotay's tribe? I think they'd both just keep their names (or designations) as they are.
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Old March 5 2009, 09:58 PM   #19
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

Didn't even realize, until now, that Chakotay only had one name!

The things you learn everyday....

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Old March 6 2009, 01:52 AM   #20
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

Seems in the future that a woman taking her husband's last name is purely optional. It's highly unlikely that Samantha's husband's name is Greskrendtregk Wildman. So apparently Sam kept her own surname and also passed it on to Naomi.

Also in TNG, Beverly's maiden name was Howard, but this was also the last name of her Grandmother. In "Sub Rosa", Ronin romanced all the "Howard women", going WAY back. So it seems that Bav broke tradition by changing her last name to Crusher, when otherise Howard seems to have been passed matrilinearly.
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Old March 6 2009, 02:20 AM   #21
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I'm looking about out my window and I can smell the after woft of plenty of pretentious wankers who need to prove that they are not cattle, but over all marriage is just a lark and name changing is just part of the game, though I have a Dutch friend who was just overjoyed to take on an English sounding name so that the natives here would stop butchering her own mother tongue. However half a world away and 5 years later, she remarried an immigrant Ducth fellow and shes back to square one with a new unpronounceable name all the stupid Kiwi's can't quite get their tongue around. I defy you to prove to me that Seven of nine or Chuckles are not early 20th century Hasidic Jews?
I really don't know what you are talking about. Really.
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Old March 6 2009, 02:36 AM   #22
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

Picard seemed pretty sure that his children would have his name, and don't forget Lwaxanna Troi, and did I hear that her daughter is a Riker now?

Had a thought on the toilet.

If Chakotay is really big time into the ancient love traditions of being all native American and such... What about Polygamy? Googling tells me that it's not common but it did occur in areas, but i always took the term Squaw being it's own plural to suggest a harem.

Would that mean then that if he took his wifes name, then ipso facto he would take all his wives names, which I'm not precisely sure if that is the definition of a strutting cock or the dug and redug wound of eunuch?
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Old March 6 2009, 02:59 AM   #23
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I'm looking about out my window and I can smell the after woft of plenty of pretentious wankers who need to prove that they are not cattle, but over all marriage is just a lark and name changing is just part of the game, though I have a Dutch friend who was just overjoyed to take on an English sounding name so that the natives here would stop butchering her own mother tongue. However half a world away and 5 years later, she remarried an immigrant Ducth fellow and shes back to square one with a new unpronounceable name all the stupid Kiwi's can't quite get their tongue around. I defy you to prove to me that Seven of nine or Chuckles are not early 20th century Hasidic Jews?
I really don't know what you are talking about. Really.
crib notes.

You said you didn't know about Oz and new Zealand.

I am in New Zealand right now.

I then gave an example of a female friends marriage habits who is living in new Zealand too but was born and raised to the age of maybe twelve in Holland.

Then I remarked about the questrionalble traditional heritage these people t might abide by. Just because Seven didn't know where she came from other than being Borg, her gran might teach her all sorts of things, which be that as it may, she is probably into polyandry and communal living, but Chakotay managed to keep track of his genealogy back some 400 years that he knows that there was a female teacher alive in 1996 with his blood in her.

Can you imagine the balls on the Missionary that tries to convert the Borg withe the good word?

I was also being a punk.

Additional

Personally my mother didn't marry and I have her name. I didn't marry but my child has a hyphenated name created from my name plus his mothers, but I was annoyed because I thought it would be an interesting traddition if he took his mothers name like I took mine.
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Old March 6 2009, 11:08 AM   #24
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

spoonunseptium wrote: View Post
There's no need for either of them to take each other's names.
Seconded.
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Of course there's no need, and it's physically impossible for her to anyway.
Right... because names are physical...
Actually, this may apply to my point: Chakotay's equivalent for a last name is tattoed on his forehead.
Now according to the claimed need to assess a family merge in marriage by way of sharing a name, Seven should get a tattoo. Except it's an ethnic thing. Therefore she doesn't need to. (Unless she was visiting the tribe in the jungle and they wanted to adopt her... and she wanted to be adopted. If they could work around the ocular implant. Hold on, I'm running out of ifs.)
Nor does Chakotay need to use a name from her old Borg or human identity. What might matter is what last name they use, and neither of them uses any.
Pointless debate anyway.
The only people for whom the name choice might be relevant are their hypothetical children.

Oh, and, by the way, I think Chakotay did the tattoo (officially to honor his father) so that he could dispense with most other Native American traditions. Religion set aside, he's a modern man, not a traditionalist, and certainly not a polygamist.

And I believe "squaw" is a derogatory, racist term. Better dispense with it. The use of it in a point about polygamy underlines how antiquated that idea is. In Native American societies, if polygamy was practiced, it was about survival. For all women to be provided for if there were less men, or proper providers, than women.
In a hypothetical generational ship with less men than women, one would rather consider polyandry...
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Old March 6 2009, 11:28 AM   #25
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

"Metaphysically impossible?" or should I say it was physically impossible for either of them to sign the marriage certificate.

Polygamy might not be the way of the future, but the decriminalization of consensual Polygamy most certainly must be that it can hardly be still in the interest of the government to to stop three or four people from living together in the bonds of matrimony especially after civilization fell at least twice between the 1960s and the 2260s.

The XO got that Tattoo in the episode Tattoo when Him and his pappy went for a spirit walk and found a colony of hybrid sky-people living in the jungles of south America I assumed. It's been a while but I thought that the tattoo was the equivalent of getting a T-Shirt at a rock concert since the tribal people gave it to him. i think he might have given different reasons in another episode because Voyager has amusing crooked continuity.

Seven might want her darling to get a neural implant so that they could "cuberfuck" like she used to with Axum, who she might still boff in her dreams, and Chakotay has his own experience with borg implant group sex that he decided that it wasn't worth complaining about... Not being able to cyber each other might be for her like a regular woman would feel when marrying a bloke with no penis, which happens all the time. Although Chuckles does have that strap-on he used in Scorpion which follows the line of thought I was enjoying earlier.
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Old March 6 2009, 09:48 PM   #26
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
but i always took the term Squaw being it's own plural to suggest a harem.
Creep-alert!

Guy, I know you probably don't care--nor probably does anyone else--but the word "squaw" as used today is a pejorative against Native American women.
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Old March 7 2009, 12:36 AM   #27
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

teya wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
but i always took the term Squaw being it's own plural to suggest a harem.
Creep-alert!

Guy, I know you probably don't care--nor probably does anyone else--but the word "squaw" as used today is a pejorative against Native American women.
I assumed as much, but no ones using it in deference, or lack of deference to "todays" female citizens of the first nation. Merely looking at the roots and anthropological tradition of Chakotay, who I constantly refer to as "The Indian" only because Rob Beltran is Mexican (I saw a south park the other day where Cheech and Chong were trying to pass themselves off as native Americans to sell crap through a holistic medicine outlet.) and I think it's funny they couldn't find an actual native Americans to play a Native American in the middle of Occupied America. It's almost as unmindful as blackface comedians if you wish to get really astute about it.

O.

That spirit walking tech of his to find animal guides, is basically a hive mind link up, so he shouldn't have any worries from the Borgette about his lack a replete sexual diversity. hells B'Elanna used it to commit suicide against a fraction of her psyche. I wonder how that impacted on Chuckles' well being that there wasn't some sort of thanotic transition between the two of them?
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Old March 7 2009, 01:16 AM   #28
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
but i always took the term Squaw being it's own plural to suggest a harem.
Creep-alert!

Guy, I know you probably don't care--nor probably does anyone else--but the word "squaw" as used today is a pejorative against Native American women.
I assumed as much, but no ones using it in deference, or lack of deference to "todays" female citizens of the first nation.
I'm an American Indian woman and the word is offensive. You wouldn't use the n-word. Why use this?

Merely looking at the roots and anthropological tradition of Chakotay, who I constantly refer to as "The Indian" only because Rob Beltran is Mexican (I saw a south park the other day where Cheech and Chong were trying to pass themselves off as native Americans to sell crap through a holistic medicine outlet.) and I think it's funny they couldn't find an actual native Americans to play a Native American in the middle of Occupied America. It's almost as unmindful as blackface comedians if you wish to get really astute about it.
Your lack of information is showing.

Indigenous Americans are those who trace their ancestry to the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas, both north and south. That, yes, includes Central America.

Ever heard of the Maya? The Aztecs? The Inca?

They did a lot wrong with Chakotay's background, but casting a mestizo Chicano wasn't one of them.
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Old March 7 2009, 02:24 AM   #29
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

How is attacking me, creating a situation where I want to say nice words to you?

I know plenty of nice words.

I could say the best things in the world about you, but maybe now I don't want to because you've hurt my feelings.

I am saddened.
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Old March 7 2009, 03:09 AM   #30
teya
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Re: if Chakotay doesn't have a last name, when he gets married...

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
How is attacking me, creating a situation where I want to say nice words to you?

I know plenty of nice words.

I could say the best things in the world about you, but maybe now I don't want to because you've hurt my feelings.

I am saddened.
You used the word "squaw." I'm a native woman reading it. Would you describe Sisko with the n-word and think you could get away with it?

And I really see no place where I "attacked" you. I disagreed with your statements, which were first, insulting, and then factually incorrect.
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