Terminator-216 "SMWWSMS" - Discuss/Grade <Spoilers>

[nx1701g]

Kelso wrote:

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I'm not concerned about the action... I just want it to be interesting and/or compelling.

Well, as I said, their best episodes are the Future War based ones so - luckily - two of them are future war set (Today is the Day). We're also going to have some Weaver/John Henry confrontations so it may be pretty good.

Edited to add: In the link I posted earlier (with the spoilers) there is also an interview with Josh Friedman. The writers agree with us that these last two episodes (Desert Cantos and Automatic for the People) are the worst of season two.

[Wouter2]

Ryan8bit wrote:

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Yeah, this in itself almost seems like an error. If Winston survived (which I still find very hard to believe given how close the gun was to him) and was taken away to receive medical treatment just like Sarah, Weaver should have known something about that. Perhaps she already was looking for Winston, but that's not how that episode played out. He should've been an easy target to find.

I agree in principle. However, if Weaver is not his employer, the wounded employee (a key figure, apparently) may have been cared for at a "special" institution, where Weaver or her men might not easily find him.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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Weaver has this strange tendency to kill people for the slightest reasons. She first killed one of her employees just because he expressed doubts in her. I could see her killing everybody involved there over the breach. Weaver tells John Henry that his interception of that transmission was a mistake. If it's some rival company of Weaver's, you'd think that it wasn't a mistake at all. She needed to destroy every trace that might lead back to her. She must be aware of resistance factions, and she probably assumes it was a resistance member who shot Winston.

It's true that Weaver killed very easily, early in the season. She had more patience with Ellison's initial refusal about JH, though, for some reason. But then, Cromartie considered him important, so...

Weaver didn't really need to kill everyone to destroy the traces to her, though. Even Winston apparently does not have a clue she is the owner, if so, leave alone the less important workers. And the transmission was a mistake, either way; because it was sloppy and Weaver can't accept that risk, or because a competitor, inadvertently, alerted her to its presence.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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That sounds interesting, but I still have doubts that it's Carter. He was meant to be forgotten. I have the feeling that the one returning would be Andy Goode or one of Derek's associates when he was imprisoned in that house, since that basement mystery is supposedly going to have some light shed on it.

I hadn't considered future scenes; you're right, this seems likely. They even could be sent back from Jesse's timeline, which has been established as being different from Derek's. They could be working with Jesse as far as we know, in the present. Or just seen in a "Chopin basement" flashback.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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I don't think she ever really wanted specifically to teach it morals so much as Ellison convinced her that JH needs to learn morals.

But why would she ever be convinced by that? Terminators normally don't care about morals, only about what they are instructed to do and doing that as efficiently as possible.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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Perhaps she's ok with it seeing as how Ellison's "morals" are Biblical and she was all quoting the Bible before. Plus, it's possible that the Skynet she knew developed with those morals. Given the nature of the Bible, Skynet might be acting as God did in the Old Testament, or disregarding those morals knowing that the book isn't exactly flawless. It wouldn't be the first time it was used to start conflict. I'd rather the religion stuff not be the case, but it might be what the writers are going for.

Possible, and I likewise wouldn't care much about Skynet as a religious fanatic.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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As for Savannah, she really hasn't had a reason to kill her. She poses no threat, and gives Catherine an opportunity to study humanity more.

But she does pose a threat of sorts; what if she blabs to Ellison or Patricia (Weaver's secretary) that her "mother" isn't really her mother? I suspect Ellison is already suspicious about what Weaver is, or he may even outright know.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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That's a possibility, but it's strange to have a Skynet that wants to kill John Connor or other resistance members, yet somehow just this one terminator has such a different motive.

Depending on what happens and at which point in the (ever changing) timeline, Skynet could have changed its mind. Maybe it isn't convinced in the chance of success at killing Connor, or it started to fear others would just take his place - sort of like how Sarah and John keep stopping the birth of Skynet, only to have another version/form pop right up.

[nx1701g]

^ Which is somewhat something we've seen on the show. Lauren Fields, for example, is very much becoming like Sarah Connor from what we saw in the episode Alpine Fields.

But I do think that, what's going to happen, is John Henry is Skynet and Ellison's teachings bring him to believe that he is an agent of God sent to bring about the events of Revelation to punish humanity for its sins.

[hyzmarca]

The big question is, if John Henry is Skynet, then why did Terminators come back to kill the two people who were destined to teach John Henry?

[nx1701g]

^ We still don't know that they were. The Resistance could have sent them back. The Resistance and Skynet both have Temporal Transporters so we really don't know who sent them back.

[hyzmarca]

Well, their chips were physically locked to prevent any sort of reprogramming. That had to have been done at the factory, which makes The Resistance less likely.

[nx1701g]

^ We don't know about Ellisonator being locked down for reprogramming.

As for Sherman again we can't be sure of Rosie's motives for being sent back (or even if she was meant to kill Doctor Sherman). She could have been like Vic and sent back to protect him - she did go so far as to terminate Dr. Sherman's secretary so that she could replace her. If she were going on a simple termination mission it wouldn't make sense to establish an identity in the past.

WONDERCON VIDEO - BIG SPOILERS

[Guy Gardener]

I wonder if Ellison can elect to receive death by Snusnu?

[Tim]

nx1701g wrote:

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WONDERCON VIDEO - BIG SPOILERS

Whoa!

[HappyDayRiot]

Tim M wrote:

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Whoa!

That's putting it mildly.

I am incredibly excited now - and I enjoyed Some Must Watch... a lot. It benefits from a second viewing once you realise what's real and what's not.

[Ryan8bit]

Wouter2 wrote:

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if Weaver is not his employer, the wounded employee (a key figure, apparently) may have been cared for at a "special" institution, where Weaver or her men might not easily find him.

That's what I was thinking. But that facility would have to be in close proximity to tend to that kind of wound. You might also think that Sarah would have gone to the same place instead of a public hospital since it would be more secure and there would be less questions about a breach. If the company's motives are fairly evil, I'm surprised she ended up at a hospital at all, and not in a river.

Weaver didn't really need to kill everyone to destroy the traces to her, though. Even Winston apparently does not have a clue she is the owner, if so, leave alone the less important workers.

It was possible for him to find out though. If not for Sarah, he might have. Knowing that she was the owner probably was one of the least of Weaver's concerns. Knowing about how the technology works and where it's being formed could be bad information in the wrong hands. And terminators just operate the way that they remove any possible threat.

And the transmission was a mistake, either way; because it was sloppy and Weaver can't accept that risk, or because a competitor, inadvertently, alerted her to its presence.

Hmm... it's hard to say for certain what she meant, but for some reason I got the impression that she was saying JH's interception of that message was a mistake. It makes more sense that the company made the mistake, but she just didn't phrase it that way.

They even could be sent back from Jesse's timeline, which has been established as being different from Derek's.

Yes, by a changing timeline theory, we could have hundreds of Dereks. I don't think the writers will go that route, but I also don't think they realize the implications of their time travel method. I mostly try to ignore the time travel on this show because it seldom makes sense. And that's too bad because I love thinking about time travel and it can create some interesting sci-fi if done right. This show is almost like the reason why people criticize time travel in Star Trek.

But why would she ever be convinced by that? Terminators normally don't care about morals, only about what they are instructed to do and doing that as efficiently as possible.

Mostly because JH was not learning morals, and at Ellison's insistence, he started learning those morals. I think she's definitely trying to give JH human guidance of some sort because it was that guidance that makes Skynet.

But she does pose a threat of sorts; what if she blabs to Ellison or Patricia (Weaver's secretary) that her "mother" isn't really her mother?

It's true that such a threat exists, but is somebody going to believe a little girl when she says that her mommy isn't really her mommy? From Savannah's perspective, her mom just changed after the crash. She doesn't know that Weaver is a terminator or anything else. She just knows she's different. Most people would chalk that up as something psychological, and they wouldn't assume she's a machine from the future.

Depending on what happens and at which point in the (ever changing) timeline, Skynet could have changed its mind. Maybe it isn't convinced in the chance of success at killing Connor, or it started to fear others would just take his place - sort of like how Sarah and John keep stopping the birth of Skynet, only to have another version/form pop right up.

Maybe. But then the implication is that all of the machines sent back through time belong to a slightly different Skynet with possibly differing motives. Skynet would essentially be creating its own enemy through time travel spamming.

[Ryan8bit]

hyzmarca wrote:

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The big question is, if John Henry is Skynet, then why did Terminators come back to kill the two people who were destined to teach John Henry?

There is a lot of uncertainty with all of that.

The Ellison terminator was obviously there to replace Ellison. There are several reasons why this could have been:
-To reach Weaver, although unlikely considering a terminator could've followed him instead of replacing him.
-To prevent JH from learning morals, but at this point there would be no JH. JH came from Cromartie, and had Ellison been replaced, it's unlikely that Cromartie would be the host for JH. There's still Project Babylon based on the Turk, but it would probably learn about humanity in some way or another.
-To be notified of the location of where John Connor was imprisoned in Mexico, although Skynet knowing of those events would be unlikely.
-To be a ruse to motivate Ellison into some sort of action, but this seems a little bit too advanced, even for Skynet.
-For some other event not yet known.

With Rosie, her agenda also is uncertain. Was she going to kill Sherman? Was she going to protect him? She was pretty quick to fight Cameron, but it's possible she assumed that Cameron's mission was contrary. It's most likely she wasn't sent by the resistance, but could she have been sent by rogue machines? Are there factions within Skynet?

For Skynet to kill every person who could teach JH about humanity, it would take a long list of terminators sent back to kill people. It would never end. There's nothing in particular about Ellison or Sherman that isn't replaceable. It would make more sense to kill the root of the problem, something which is inherent in Skynet's thinking. If you kill Sarah, John ceases to exist. If you kill Weaver, she will not hire someone to teach JH.

Also, the fact is that someone somewhere will inevitably teach Skynet something about humanity and the difference between right and wrong. Originally Andy Goode was probably one of those people. No one is going to set loose a computer with moods in control of a nuclear arsenal. This may be speaking to the general illogic of the show though.

[Wouter2]

Ryan8bit wrote:

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That's what I was thinking. But that facility would have to be in close proximity to tend to that kind of wound. You might also think that Sarah would have gone to the same place instead of a public hospital since it would be more secure and there would be less questions about a breach. If the company's motives are fairly evil, I'm surprised she ended up at a hospital at all, and not in a river.

Sarah drove herself back to the town, or near to it. She was then found and brought to the local hospital (producer Zack Stentz confirmed this - it was also hinted at by the blood on the seats of Sarah's Jeep, when found by the police). I guess Winston was alone at the plant at that time, and Sarah just happens to be a badass who makes Jack Bauer seem weak at times! She just keeps going and going and going, worse than a Duracell rabbit.

But the point is, it was not the company (whether it is Weaver's or not) who found her. She saved herself.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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Yes, by a changing timeline theory, we could have hundreds of Dereks. I don't think the writers will go that route, but I also don't think they realize the implications of their time travel method. I mostly try to ignore the time travel on this show because it seldom makes sense. And that's too bad because I love thinking about time travel and it can create some interesting sci-fi if done right.

Terminator isn't really about time travel though, it is more a means to an end in this franchise, not something they really want to mull over. The writers have made clear that the timeline can change (makes sense, otherwise nothing Sarah or John does would ever make any difference) and that people don't magically wink out of existence when it does change. I am sure they will not go overboard with 100s of Dereks or something like that, but as they have established that this Jesse comes from a different future than Derek, they can re-use characters/actors that died in Derek's timeline if they want - which goes doubly so for his 4 companions, as those died in the present. Their counterparts from Jesse's time would probably still be alive in the future, or may also have been sent back.

Ryan8bit wrote:

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Maybe. But then the implication is that all of the machines sent back through time belong to a slightly different Skynet with possibly differing motives. Skynet would essentially be creating its own enemy through time travel spamming.

True. But then, we have seen Terminators, neither sent by the resistance AFAIK, killing each other (Cromartie with Ellisonator). We are also starting to see resistance members plotting against each other, and probably soon fighting each other (Jesse and co vs Derek and John and co). So, maybe both sides are indeed being their own enemy, sort of.

[hyzmarca]

I doubt the military would want an ethical machine in control of their weapons. The probability of it deciding not to launch when ordered to on ethical grounds would be far too high. Respect for life and the responsibility to vaporize millions without hesitation when ordered to do so don't mix very well.

[Ryan8bit]

Wouter2 wrote:

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Sarah drove herself back to the town, or near to it. She was then found and brought to the local hospital (producer Zack Stentz confirmed this - it was also hinted at by the blood on the seats of Sarah's Jeep, when found by the police). I guess Winston was alone at the plant at that time, and Sarah just happens to be a badass who makes Jack Bauer seem weak at times! She just keeps going and going and going, worse than a Duracell rabbit.

Ah, good catch. I had just assumed that things ended when she appeared to pass out under the flying drone. From the way it was directed, it was hard to believe her getting up and driving anywhere.

Terminator isn't really about time travel though, it is more a means to an end in this franchise, not something they really want to mull over.

Agreed, but to a point things should make sense. Even Back to the Future, for as much as it was a comedy, still mostly stuck to its time travel rules. Having consistency like that is kind of nice. Not addressing the time travel at all starts to cast doubt on everything, especially with as much of it that happened earlier this season. I was glad when Jesse and Derek had that talk about time travel. I kept thinking, "It's about time." (Oh shit, that was a terrible pun, but I'm leaving it) John should be ultra curious as to how it works. Especially when people keep coming back to different times with different agendas. It starts to become a plot contrivance more than just a device to put things into motion.

I think that in the tv format they have more room to work with time travel, and they end up glossing over it. The movies were more descriptive about it, which says a lot about the show.

I am sure they will not go overboard with 100s of Dereks or something like that, but as they have established that this Jesse comes from a different future than Derek, they can re-use characters/actors that died in Derek's timeline if they want - which goes doubly so for his 4 companions, as those died in the present. Their counterparts from Jesse's time would probably still be alive in the future, or may also have been sent back.

And they might not want to confuse the viewer. If another version of someone comes back, they'd better be ready to at least try and explain time travel rather than just brushing it aside as if it doesn't really matter.

True. But then, we have seen Terminators, neither sent by the resistance AFAIK, killing each other (Cromartie with Ellisonator). We are also starting to see resistance members plotting against each other, and probably soon fighting each other (Jesse and co vs Derek and John and co). So, maybe both sides are indeed being their own enemy, sort of.

Cromartie is kind of a wild card though. He was originally sent back to 1999, so he was unexpected in 2007+. It seems he was given more independence than most terminators are if he can truly go against the wishes of Skynet.

At any rate, Skynet originally didn't help itself by trying to kill Sarah before John was born since it helped to create John. Of course, no terminator story after T1 concretely follows that it was a paradox.

The writers have made clear that the timeline can change (makes sense, otherwise nothing Sarah or John does would ever make any difference)

It makes sense for this show, but in general there is no time travel theory that is totally logical to explain Skynet's behavior, even in the movies as a whole. If things can change, then destinies of Skynet and John would never be as concrete as they are.

I guess I don't expect the writers to give it that much thought, but to me a show that features time travel shouldn't be as illogical as this.