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Old February 25 2009, 07:48 PM   #106
Lynx
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tachyon wrote: View Post
When I was watching State Of Flux for the first time, I was expecting Seska to be proven innocent in the end, even though I wanted her to be the guilty one. However, I was convinced that the writers wanted to mislead us, that she was too obvious choice to be the traitor. So I was surprised, too. Lol.
Yes, I did get the same impression too.

But I never suspected Carey either and I do think that Janeway and the others were a bit hard on him. I thought it was obvious that he wasn't a traitor. He was simply too much Starfleet for that.
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Old February 25 2009, 11:34 PM   #107
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
So just what threat is Seska trying to save Voyager from? This is a good episode but it came out of nowhere; they should have built up to this, not just drop it in our lap. Have a few episodes where we explore Seska as a character, maybe rekindle her relationship with Chakotay, and have a few more episodes exploring the Kazon as a serious threat. This is a good episode which could have made for a great season if they had held this episode for the finale. The villain in the real season finale was a block of cheese for crying out loud!
I agree! This was a great episode that needed just a little more buildup to be perfect. I don't think this would have undermined the surprise at all, but rather made the 'betrayal' resonate more.

Emanations: Harry dying isn't a sign of danger, he does it all the time.
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Old February 26 2009, 06:16 AM   #108
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Lynx wrote: View Post
Tachyon wrote: View Post
When I was watching State Of Flux for the first time, I was expecting Seska to be proven innocent in the end, even though I wanted her to be the guilty one. However, I was convinced that the writers wanted to mislead us, that she was too obvious choice to be the traitor. So I was surprised, too. Lol.
Yes, I did get the same impression too.

But I never suspected Carey either and I do think that Janeway and the others were a bit hard on him. I thought it was obvious that he wasn't a traitor. He was simply too much Starfleet for that.

I didn't suspect Carey either. And I certainly didn't want him to bee the guilty one.
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Old February 26 2009, 06:22 AM   #109
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Proposed:

Rule of Voyager 1.5: The Universe also hates Joe Carey (but not as much as Harry Kim.)

Hey, maybe we should start a somewhat tongue-in-cheek 'Rules of Voyager' thread?
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Old February 26 2009, 05:32 PM   #110
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
Proposed:

Rule of Voyager 1.5: The Universe also hates Joe Carey (but not as much as Harry Kim.)
I'd amend that to change "the universe" to Janeway. She promoted a terrorist in his place, she accused him of treason, and she sent him on an away mission for the first time in six years only for him to be killed. And when she went back in time to save Tuvok and Seven she didn't bother going back a few extra weeks to save this man who has a wife and two kids. Kim was unlucky, Carey's fate was decided.


Heroes and Demons (**)

This was the first episode of Voyager I ever saw, and this is the first time I have re-watched it since then. I had heard about the show for months and I was really excited about seeing this brand new ship, so I was more than a little disappointed when my first episode spent so much time messing about on fake-looking sets on the holodeck. I was also confused as to why they were so determined to find the Ensign Kim character because he was just an ensign and normally Star Trek doesn't bother trying to help red-shirts. I think we can all agree I was half-right about the Kim character right from the start.

What works in this episode? The Doctor. What doesn't work? Everything else. In particular the story, the technobabble, the holodeck and the Vikings. Any script that's description begins with "The holodeck malfunctions..." needs to be thrown out unless it is beyond exceptional, and this episode needs to go a long way before it can make that claim. And just who came up with the idea of Vikings? They were so ridiculous and poorly acted that if they had suddenly started singing "spam spam spam" I wouldn't have been surprised in the least. Actually, it would have been a big improvement.

There is a nice scene where the Doctor talks about having never seen the sky or wildlife, and that should have led to a great moment when he first appears on the holodeck. Unfortunately the set looks incredibly fake and even Picardo's acting can't salvage the scene.

The two stars are purely for Picardo and some nice characterisation of the Doctor.
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Old February 26 2009, 06:32 PM   #111
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Proposed:

Rule of Voyager 1.5: The Universe also hates Joe Carey (but not as much as Harry Kim.)
I'd amend that to change "the universe" to Janeway. She promoted a terrorist in his place, she accused him of treason, and she sent him on an away mission for the first time in six years only for him to be killed. And when she went back in time to save Tuvok and Seven she didn't bother going back a few extra weeks to save this man who has a wife and two kids. Kim was unlucky, Carey's fate was decided.
Done and done. Maybe there's an old Irish feud between the Janeways and the Careys?

And I must say, if your first introduction to Voyager was "Heroes and Demons," no wonder you became a hater. Like you said, about all that works in that episode is the Doc. The rest is cheese. Bad cheese. And it under-utilizes the series premise quite nicely.
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Old February 26 2009, 06:44 PM   #112
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^Hear, hear!
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Old February 26 2009, 06:58 PM   #113
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Proposed:

Rule of Voyager 1.5: The Universe also hates Joe Carey (but not as much as Harry Kim.)
I'd amend that to change "the universe" to Janeway. She promoted a terrorist in his place, she accused him of treason, and she sent him on an away mission for the first time in six years only for him to be killed. And when she went back in time to save Tuvok and Seven she didn't bother going back a few extra weeks to save this man who has a wife and two kids. Kim was unlucky, Carey's fate was decided.
Actually Janeway really wanted Carey as her chief engineer but B'Elanna proved herself to be better for the job. As for the terrorist accusation that was along with Chakotay and Tuvok since Seska had planted false evidence. Lucky for Carey they didn't follow it blindly.

So to say Janeway hated Carey is an arguement that doesn't hold much water for me.
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Old February 26 2009, 07:09 PM   #114
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Not to mention that Janeway actually put Carey in charge of the Torpedoes and Shuttle Building Team, the most important unit on the ship!
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Old February 26 2009, 07:17 PM   #115
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Lynx wrote: View Post
Not to mention that Janeway actually put Carey in charge of the Torpedoes and Shuttle Building Team, the most important unit on the ship!

That's why we hardly ever saw him. The man worked around the clock!!
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Old February 26 2009, 09:26 PM   #116
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
Like you said, about all that works in that episode is the Doc. The rest is cheese. Bad cheese.
Ah-HAH! THIS episode is what the cheese from 'Learning Curve' is made of!
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Old February 26 2009, 10:15 PM   #117
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

number6 wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Not to mention that Janeway actually put Carey in charge of the Torpedoes and Shuttle Building Team, the most important unit on the ship!

That's why we hardly ever saw him. The man worked around the clock!!
Aw, you beat me to saying it!

There's a line in the 'Starship Spotter' book entry on the Delta Flyer where B'Elanna is quoted as saying 'If I have to rebuild one more shuttle, I'm going to go space crazy!'

I tend to think Carey would have been the one to have said this.
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Old February 27 2009, 02:03 PM   #118
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

yeah, I also saw Heroes And Demons for the first time in years via Virgin1. Not impressed.
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Old February 27 2009, 07:06 PM   #119
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

kimc wrote: View Post
Actually Janeway really wanted Carey as her chief engineer but B'Elanna proved herself to be better for the job. As for the terrorist accusation that was along with Chakotay and Tuvok since Seska had planted false evidence. Lucky for Carey they didn't follow it blindly.

So to say Janeway hated Carey is an arguement that doesn't hold much water for me.
You can only have so many coincidences before it ends up being motivation. I'm going to keep my eye on Janeway and Carey.


Cathexis (**)

I saw this episode a few years ago so I remembered the twist ending. This episode falls into the cliché of some presence taking over the ship, but what saves this episode for me is some interesting lighting. It sounds dumb to give an episode extra points for lighting the ship differently, but I like this dark look that the ship has here.

The cast doesn't gel in this episode. They have worked okay up until now, but in this episode they don't display much chemistry for some reason. It felt like a bunch of people who didn't know each other rather than people who had been living and working together for the last few months. And Neelix really bugged me in this episode which is the first time in the series he has managed it. I don't think it will be the last.

Not a great episode, but I think it was well executed. However, this also could have been a TNG episode, and that requires that I deduct half a star.

I can't say much else because this episode tired me and now I'm all sleepy. Brain not work right. Take nap now.
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Old February 27 2009, 08:06 PM   #120
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^Not my fav either. Okay, but not quite good.
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