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Old February 22 2009, 09:00 PM   #16
Myasishchev
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Either way, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's shields are far superior to that of Galaxy or Nebula, it means that they recharge quicker, but since Galaxy/Nebula are so massive, their raw shield power output has to be greater than Sovereign's. In Star Trek, bigger is always better.
Indeed? I think one of the lessons of the Dominion War is that capships are intensely vulnerable to swarmers that manage to get inside the gaps in the capships' firing arcs. I hope the first thing they corrected on Sovereigns, Akiras, and later vessels was the lack of close-in capability that could dissuade Jem'Hadar fighters from exploiting the gaps in Galaxies' and especially Excelsiors' phaser batteries.

As a small aside, imagine the problems a Constitution would have had with a flight of Jem'Hadar fighters. That thing was made exclusively for standoff fighting. With less than a third of approaches angles even covered by weapons, it looks like the Rodney compared to the Galaxy's Yamato.

JNG wrote:
But for some reason, in the Dominion War as depicted on DS9, everyone frequently decided that they'd arrange into "lines" in three-dimensional space and wait around at sublight for the enemies to come try and "break through the lines," which they inexplicably did by also dropping to sublight, flying in tight formation with one another and moving to extremely close range with all the Dominion ships.
We have to give 'em a bit of room for artistic license I think. TNG often rattled off distances of thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers between combatants in small-fleet and ship v. ship actions, but on-camera evidence contradicted this heavily. Other than the swarmers (Peregrines, Defiants, Mirandas/Soyuzes/Centaurs, Jem'Hadar fighters, BoPs) I think it might be better to assume that the battlelines formed larger fronts than shown. I know it doesn't show on the screen, but the alternative is assuming that both Fed and Dom combatants are too stupid to go around a concentration of ships taking up no more than a thousand cubic kilometers.

As for dropping into sublight, I also think that's attributable to the warp-breaking technology demonstrated in BoBW. It's definitely possible in the Trek world to force a ship from warp, by creating an warp field inimical to the adversary's propulsive field. Hey, if it worked against the Borg, I'm sure it work against the Dominion.

So it's probably preferable to assume that the "lines" are square formations millions of kilometers wide and tall that, after an appreciable fraction of an enemy fleet has been forced out of warp, concentrate. Both sides jockey for a superior position, like World War I battlelines. Somehow they tend to wind up facing off rather two-dimensionally. For the Dominion, whose doctrine tends to focus on large, expendable swamer fleets, kamikaze attacks and particle beam weapons over standoff capship battle and photon torpedo contests, closer is probably better.

Then again we see huge Dominion battlecruisers. They seem even more vulnerable to swarm attacks than Galaxies.
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Old February 22 2009, 09:13 PM   #17
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

^I don't know why Galaxies looked so vulnerable on screen when up close with smaller ships, the phaser arrays certainly cover 360


edit: The fleet battles are...I don't know what to make of them. I guess fighting at high warp could work, but so could ancient armies run on the horses around enemy cavalry, but chose instead to engage in a cavalry to cavalry skirmishers. I guess the goal is to destroy the other fleet, so they try to do that before conquering other planets.

I also assume that the Breen attack on Earth was of similar nature, high warp attack but they were all destroyed in the end with minimal damage to San Francisco from what we've seen.

Last edited by EmperorTiberius; February 22 2009 at 09:24 PM.
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Old February 22 2009, 10:10 PM   #18
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

The Breen attack on Earth never made sense to me. They managed to take out a bridge and scuff up the facade of Starfleet Headquarters.

I like to think their photon torpedo missed or was thrown off the target, but some part of North America is an irradiated crater. The shockwave from a photon torpedo hitting around Alberta knocked down the Golden Gate. The burn marks are from pieces of Canada descending from LEO.

As for the Galaxies firing arcs, I believe it's less that they don't have broad coverage but that their big arrays don't have the reaction time to deal with objects maneuvering so close. However, there are a few actual gaps, directly in front of the saucer section, directly in front of the deflector (where the Odyssey got smashed), and I think (but am not sure) directly behind the engineering hull.
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Old February 22 2009, 11:26 PM   #19
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

DRACO wrote: View Post
they are different casings? anywhere I can find a comparison?
In DS9 "Valiant" we see Nog working on a quantum torpedo that is structurally identical but cosmetically different from a standard photon torpedo. A bit more decoration and labels and crap, probably to indicate it's alot more advanced and sophisticated.
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Old February 22 2009, 11:33 PM   #20
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
The Breen attack on Earth never made sense to me. They managed to take out a bridge and scuff up the facade of Starfleet Headquarters.

I like to think their photon torpedo missed or was thrown off the target, but some part of North America is an irradiated crater.
That or San Francisco has its own deflector shield and the Breen weapons just barely managed to penetrate it (most weapons do cause SOME damage even through shields).
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Old February 22 2009, 11:57 PM   #21
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

^Another good possibility.
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Old February 23 2009, 12:45 AM   #22
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
We've never seen any Federation ship in the TNG era, except perhaps the Defiant, fight to their full potential. In many fleet battles in DS9 the Galaxy Class ships used their phasers most often.
We see Galaxy fight to full potential on numerous occasions in TNG, we see upgraded Lakota, we see Sovereign in movies, and Intrepid, and we know what a couple other ships can do from inferring. Everything else is speculation by fans.
I'l admit that my use of "never" was hyperbole. However in many instances the hero ship is hampered in one way or another. In the clip you reference later in your post, the 1701D was hampered by a powerful being who could ensure that every shot the "Husnock" (I put that in quotes because I'm not convinced that it is a real Husnock ship.) fired were perfect shots and that - at this point of the episode - no matter what the 1701D could never hurt it. In Yesterday's Enterprise, she could not maneuver enough because she had to stand between the 1701C and the Klingons. In the Arsenal of Freedom, the Enterprise could only get a good shot by tricking the drone into the atmosphere. In Generations, she was again hampered by an inability to properly maneuver and access to the ships shield frequency. Numerous other episodes show the 1701D firing only enough to hurt the enemy enough to get them to talk (i.e. The Wounded). In the Lakota and Defiant fight both ships held back, I believe the dialogue confirms it.

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
Smaller does not equate to weaker. I will assume you mean the Galaxy has launchers that are 50 meters ( ≈164") long. There is no reason why the launchers on the belly of the Sovereign can't be 50 meters long. Also one could argue that the Sovereign has a better launcher design than the Galaxy, allowing the same fire power from a shorter launcher
50 meter is just an off the cuff remark, i don't know exact dimensions. The sovereign doesn't have them because we can see how tiny they are in MSDS. They look like slow firing Voyager ones.
Are the MSD's of both ships at the same scale? If they are, then you may have a point; if they are not, you don't. Even if they are shorter, the Sovereign could have a new launcher design. She does have a very rapid rate of fire, as I'll show later.

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
Except for the Runabouts' "micro torpedoes', all photon casings look alike in size and shape. So it is a safe assumption that the Sovereign and Galaxy carry identical photon torpedoes. We've never seen the Sovereign fire multiple torpedoes at once (I.E. dispersal pattern sierra) but that doesnt mean it can't be done. Also if the launchers are capable of a rapid fire rate greater than the Galaxy that should close the gap with burst fire.
Sovereign had plenty of chances to prove they can, but they never do, they are slow firing to say the least. They are not capable of same rapid fire as Galaxy, not matter what fanwank sources say. We simply don't see this rapid fire.

Take a look at this video starting at 1:00, and tell me when Sovereign displayed this type of firepower?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_XbWq49vUM
The 1701D launches 6 torpedoes in 2 seconds. In this link here, at ≈7:20 the 1701E fires 4 photons in 1 second. At this link look at ≈1:10 the 1701E fires 3 quantum torpedoes in 1 second and it does it again a few seconds later. That's pretty good don't you think? It should also be a display of firepower at least equal to a Galaxy.
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Old February 23 2009, 12:49 AM   #23
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

JNG wrote: View Post
Torpedoes should not be used at close range to the launching ship for obvious reasons, and in those confused large-scale close-in battles, detonating torpedoes would often be doing some of their work on other friendlies as well. So that explains heavy use of phasers in those situations (though perhaps not the creation of the situation in the first place...maybe huge concentrations of enemy ships have intense jamming that impede effective long-range torpedo strikes, or even "jam" subspace in such a way that warping on by them becomes an issue from certain vectors?).
With ships blowing up left and right, would torpedo explosions really make much difference?
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Old February 23 2009, 12:54 AM   #24
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

Actually, the Sovereign doesn't seem to have any photon torpedoes except in Nemesis, in which some of the launchers are literally bolted onto the hull in these silly-looking turret things. In First Contact and Insurrection she seems to have only the one torpedo launcher which is equipped with quantum torpedoes; for some reason this torpedo launcher either shares a space with or doubles as the Captain's Yacht, which means it can't be much bigger or more sophisticated than the E-D launcher.

It's worth remembering that the Defiant--which seems to have four forward torpedo tubes--is often described as one of the most heavily armed ships Starfleet has ever built. Considering those same launchers can be used for both photon and quantum torpedoes, I'm willing to bet there's no real difference between them and Enterprise can fire both from the main launcher. That makes the extra launchers in Nemesis kind of pointless.
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Old February 23 2009, 03:35 AM   #25
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

Vanyel wrote: View Post
With ships blowing up left and right, would torpedo explosions really make much difference?
Couldn't help...at least if you don't want to be one of the ones blowing up left and right. I don't think most of the ships we saw blow up are having a full explosive combination of their matter and antimatter supplies; impulse overload would be bad, but probably not as bad as a nearby torpedo detonation. You make a point in that the Jem'Hadar probably don't care one way or the other and take any shot they think will kill more of the enemy, but I doubt the Alliance is careless with the close-in torpedoes.

Well, maybe the Romulans
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Old February 23 2009, 01:27 PM   #26
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

A little bout of counterarguments here; no offense meant.

1. the Galaxy class, whole families including children, the Soverign carries only officers and people need for specific missions
Never established. We didn't see families or children in most TNG episodes; we might well have missed them during our E-E sightings in the movies, too.

2. the Galaxy class has numerous accommodations and far more diplomatic resources than the Sovy, why the Sovy has diplomatic potential is is far less than than the Galaxy lass, and the Sovy is not as spacious
The difference in space is minor, and we saw the E-E offer lavish diplomatic facilities quite on par with those of the E-D in ST:INS.

3. the Sovy has type XII phasers and regenerative shielding, because of the immense power drain to offense and defensive systems, a new warp core was desiggned to add more power, type XII phasers, previously designated type X+ for security reasons where so power intensive that they where only used on outposts,stations and planetary defenses...
None of this is mentioned anywhere in the shows or movies. For all we know, the E-E has Type X phasers, no Type X+ exists, the reactor of the E-E isn't of particularly new design, and there is nothing particularly regenerative about the E-E shielding (apart from all Star Trek shielding being regenerative to some degree).

4. the Sovy is much more manueverable than the Glaxy, a feature that has little benefit other than combat effectiveness
No superior maneuverability has been demonstrated. Both ships can turn on a coin or do barrel rolls or accelerate and decelerate rapidly at sublight and warp alike.

5. Sources have stated that the Sovy, the Promethius and Akira where wall designs Starfleet put into production to combat the Borg threat as well as possible hostilities from the maor quadrant powers
Sources are probably wrong. None of the classes has been associated with the Borg threat, and indeed the E-E was specifically held back when the Borg came. Also, Akira has design features more akin to E-D than E-E, and ships of that class have registry numbers far lower than those of, say, Voyager or Defiant.

6. the Sovy has 16 Type XII Phaser arrays 8 Torp launchers and one Turret capable of firing 4torps/sec, I mean come on, plus only ships who are expected to see allot of action quantums
The E-E model sports five cojoining plus two separate strips on the saucertop, four on saucer bottom, one on the underbelly, and (from NEM onwards) two per nacelle pylon, for a total of sixteen, so that much is right. Their type is unknown. The E-D sported a smaller total number, but had longer strips covering the same space as the five cojoining dorsal or two slightly separated ventral saucer strips of the E-E, and had short strips in more locations than the E-E has.

The E-E model originally had four regular torp tubes, in two pairs on the secondary hull; their combined firepower in ST:INS seemed similar to that of the two single E-D launchers. A fifth launcher might have been in place next to the aft shuttlebay in that movie already, or at least we saw an upper dorsal shot leave the ship, best explained by such a launcher. ST:NEM added four (three) verifiable launcher muzzles to those original four (five). Whether the extra launchers pack the same punch as the original ones is debatable, as two of them are in a tiny turret next to the upper shuttlebay. Perhaps they are unable to fire at warp, similar to how other small, short-barrel launchers have fired only sublight torps?

For rate-of-fire figures, Vanyel gave some for repeating shots. But there's also the demonstrated E-D ability to spit out up to five torps simultaneously, in less than a second ("Arsenal of Freedom" and "Yesterday's Enterprise").

7. is it wasn't expected to see war-like conditions why bother with regenerative shielding?
Even Starfleet hospital ships have shields and phasers. And shields have always been "regenerative"; those on the E-E aren't particularly good against the villains seen in the movies, although we might have seen exceptionally powerful villains there.

as for other things, two ships out of the whole fleet, your gonna be lucky if you see them,
Why just two? The E-E might be the ninth Sovereign built for all we know.

if your refferring to the E,'s initial absense in FC, that was explained... Starfleet not sure about Picard after his assimilation
If they doubted the Captain, they should have just jailed or shot him and given the good ship to somebody else. They clearly didn't want the ship, either.

Which may mean the ship wasn't exceptionally good, even though it may have been good, perhaps even somewhat better than all other ships. No point dragging it to the battle, then, when dozens of almost as good ships were already there. Or it may mean the E-E was a real lemon and no good in battle.

It's worth remembering that the Defiant--which seems to have four forward torpedo tubes--is often described as one of the most heavily armed ships Starfleet has ever built.
Hmh? I don't think so.

In any case, "heavily armed" would be a relative measure. Rambo was heavily armed when single-handedly firing a M-60 machine gun from the hip - possibly the most heavily armed foot-mobile infantryman at that point, fictionally or in reality. He obviously wasn't the most heavily armed thing in US arsenal, though.

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Old February 23 2009, 03:25 PM   #27
Chemahkuu
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Actually, the Sovereign doesn't seem to have any photon torpedoes except in Nemesis.
The very first time we see the Enterprise-E open fire, is when she slams three Photon torpedoes into the Borg Cube as she drops out of warp, taking out the weapon turret firing on the Defiant.

In Insurrection she fires several Photon torpedoes from her aft launchers at the pursuing Sona vessels.

In Nemesis she has a lot more Photon torpedo launchers as well as firing a hail of torpedoes from them during the fight with the Scimitar.
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Old February 23 2009, 03:37 PM   #28
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

Draco, I hope you realize that in this and your other thread, the stats are, at best, vaguely based off back-stage info, which are merely one possible interpretation.

Really, what are you expecting? From any set of base assumptions you can come up with anything. For example, I don't believe the Sovereign is anything particularly special or "war-like", or that the quantum torpedo is anything particularly special, etc., etc., etc..

Even if the Sovereign has sparkling new fancy junk, it goes without saying that newer ships tend to get newer things faster, because older ships have to wait for their next refit. (Which also makes for interesting situations where older ships fresh out of refit are actually "newer" than newer ships.)
ok ok true, but the only thing I really said that hasn't been confiremd is some Technical manual or on screen at some point is the changes
made in nemisis, and the evidence is pretty solid there, it's obvious she was beefed up, I think with that, it's very hard
to arue the new phaser arrays, only the torps are really up for question and even then, the case against them isn't good, because
either they are there as observed from Nemisis or we have some really bad mistakes going on in the film...

many sources have said it's type XII arrays, as well as the original torps...

so lets be conservative here, and reduce the added weapons abit...no actual forget all of them lets go with the original configuration

which is:

12 Type XII Arrays
1 Quantum Torpedo Turret
4 Photon torp launchers (I'm assuming 2fore two 2aft but I don't remember where they where)

so we just lost 4 arrays and 4 launchers, bummer but thats still more than enough to outmatch the 3
launchers as shown in the TNG Technical manual, and I'm pretty sure one of those isn't available when the ship
has both sections docke, meaning only used after saucer separation...

also, yes she's new so yes she'll have new tech but, the Akira was new, she didn't have Quantums nor Type XII phasers..... and she was built for war
in fact, discounting the Prommy, which is a prototype, only the Defiant and Sovy have Quantums and only the Sovy has the new phasers.

ok now theres a lot of replies here so I'll try to answer them all hope I don't miss anything...

but first of all, saucer separation, while a Tactical advantage wasn't designed so much for Multi-Vector Assualt as it was to
get the civilians (aboard the saucer) out of harms way in case of a warp core breach or large battle, thats why despite this
the Prommy was the first ship credited with MVA, also of note, remember how long it took to separate? not good lol

We have seen Sovereign in battle in all her movies so far, and I have never seen her dish out the punishment like the Galaxy class could. Small torpedo launchers that Sovereign has are there so that she can make up for the other small ones. She doesn't have anything like the massive 50 meter launchers that Galaxy has

The fact that she is the most advanced ship keeps her level with Galaxy, it doesn't give her a large advantage like some think, but sheer raw power of (War) Galaxy should be match for a Sovereign, whether she has families or not doesn't come into play.
50 meter launchers? first of all I doubt they are 50 meters which is what, roughly 150ft? actaully I think more that that because 1 meter isn't exactly 3 foot but more

yeah even for the size of the Galaxy, I doubt there that big, especially with all the facilities she has...

but bigger =/= better, and again the Galaxy only has 3 luanchers, 2 available when not seperated
compared to the Sovys Turret plus 8 launchers (4 launchers being conservative)

We've never seen the Sovereign fire multiple torpedoes at once
oh are you talking about the launcher or the Turret, because they liked firing two Quantums from that turret an awefull lot...

as for the other launchers, it's hard to say, if we just assume that since most launchers of the era could fire 2 at a time (tubes being only one)
then.... thats allot of torpedoes, but if we just tone that down to one.. and take the 4/sec rating they gave us for the turret...

we have have thease values, and these are just forward salvos btw)

(non upgraded sec luancher 1) 4+2= 6 torps
(non upgraded sec laucher 2) 4+4= 8 torps
(upgraded 1 per launcher) 4+3= 7 torps
(upgraded 2 per launcher) $+6 = 10 torps

even if you take the smallest value, thats twice the Galxays combined fore and aft launchers...

and I jjust listed the Sovs foward ones, unupgraded has 2 aft and and upgraded 5 aft

so... you have +2-4 more torps counting aft unupgraded and 5-10 more counting upgraded, she's a beast lol

now I doubt we will ever see all of them fire at once, because of firing arcs and load time...

However, there is one bit of possible evidence that the Sovereign has been upgraded. Is First Contact, she showed bubble shielding and in Nemesis she showed the skin tight shielding seen in the battle scenes in DS9.
good point, allthough I wonder if thats just a setting, Conformal shielding I do believe it's called, because I remember reading about it somewhere...but I dunno I'll look it up later tonight

The ship splits in two. There's a battle section. If they wanted the other section to be in the fight also, they could probably, you know, offload noncombat personnel. I assume they did this for all the Galaxy-class ships we saw fighting in the war.

I also want to note that they didn't seem to hesitate sending the Enterprise-D into dangerous combat situations, despite the presence of families and such, and I don't think there is much evidence to suggest they impede combat performance in and of themselves.
sure you can offload them but if the Galaxy was designed to compliment whole families, I seriously doubt a rather militaristic stance was taken when
they designed her...

well theres going to always be risk exploring the unknown, but theres a difference between a tense moment or
being caught of gaurd and all out war... how many times have they thought they where safe and all and then plot twist and theres no time to evacuate...?

Yes, I'm sure the diplomats are very cramped, finding anywhere to meet on a ship nearly two and a half million cubic meters in volume. I imagine there isn't even a place for them to have diplomatic receptions LIKE THE ONE THEY HAD IN INSURRECTION WHEN THEY WERE ON A DIPLOMATIC MISSION
look, I never said the Sovy had absolutly no diplomatic capabilities, I just said it doesn't have the vast accomdations of a Galaxy, size isn't all to that,
spacious and luzurious quarters help ease tension, cramped no, comfortable? probably more so if they where on a Galaxy class...

and yes, the Sovy will still have scientific facilites and what not, the Enterpise is an explorer by nature, but military prowess was obviously a big concern...

you don't want to have to mothball a hip that new and of that size after wartime... but she was designed with the Bord the Dominion and other threats in mind,

so while war wasn't a big consideration with the Galaxy, it was with the Sovy being one of it's design specifications, rivaling
the importance for exploration, but no it's not 100% reserved for war like say the Defiant

X+ would, I expect, be equivalent to Type-11, like DS9 got; you're using Technical Manual talk here, but the Tech Manual put those at the top of the scale. Type XII is just fanwank. Fanwank has its place, but do I think a ship designed a number of years before the DS9 upgrades has phasers bigger than what starbases were being fitted with at the time of her design? What sense does that make? What's "new" about the warp core?
heh, X+ plus could be type XI but chances are it isn't, but regardless of what X+ should be equivalent to...whats so bad about the Techhnical manual? which isn't the only source btw to make the connection.. but regardless if we are oing to argue
about weather the Sovy has type XII phasers... there are amny sources that state that, in fact they neerly all do, I can't think of one that
says something different, one of them if I can remember right, clearly being Star Trek The Magazine issue 1, I forget which publication mentioned
the new warp core, probably one of the Technical manuals, which again... I really don't see a problem with, as from what all i can tell, they are accurate expect maybe
some typos that may be hiding I haven't found a problem with them..

in fact I'm looking at my copy right now, it obviously met Roddenberry's aproval, he did the Intro, and looky there,
by RICK STERNBACH, who worked for Roddenbarry, during TNG, made desigen the Galor class, the Intrepid, the Promethius, various PADDs and the like, hmm
how much more Cannon can you get?


and I said starbases and ouposted previously used them, many no doubt still do but if they can fir on a starship now, I would assume there are even more powerfull arrays on them like
the ones DS9 has, bacause DS9 has many phasers, not all of them are type XI, I wish I had my ds9 stuff with me, moving sucks ...


She very well may be; I don't know why you'd feel so sure about this. Impulse maneuverability probably isn't vastly important for a target nearly 700 meters long; it isn't as if there is a tremendous amount of dodging about she can do versus phaser beams or torpedoes and so forth that travel at c or greater. I'm sure it's always desirable, even for ships that will never fire a shot in anger.
ehh well, every little bit helps, you're right the it's negligable unless say your opponent is as bulky as the Galxy lol, but seriously, I think it's more of a harder-to-hit mind set...

Those sources (who?
many like, Star Trek The Magazine, issue 1, Eneterprise E briefing,

as for it taking time yes, yes it would, but not all designs are set in stone during developement it's an on-going process, as we've seen adapting launchers for Quantums or
say the automodulated shielding that was developed quickly and installed on most newer ships... as a borg counter-measure,
now even in DS9, it didn't take years for them to create a countermeasure for the "shield peircing" poleron beams... it seems that it really doesn't take them long to progress, as for
a whole ship design, proects are mothballed, brought back out, and again I forgot which book mentioned the warp core but,
it also mentioned that that was a stalling point...

so as their building this ship, as a future propsoal for severe threats, things happen that influence to design as it's being developed obviously, I mean when they tell you it's designed to combat
threats like the borg and the dominion ok, but that doesn't mean the whole design is to combat one major power... r that thats when the history of the project started

also, what episode did we first see the borg, early to mid TNG?

The phaser coverage is similar to that of a Galaxy-class ship, I don't acknowledge the phasers are of a different type at all (John Eaves noted they were the same), and I see no reason to believe that the Galaxy-class ships fighting the war (and other kinds too) didn't receive as many Q-torps as were available--they were obviously expected to see a lot of action, considering they had wings built around them in the fleet actions on DS9.
and just where did he say that? Star Trek the Magazine and other sources say otherwise, and I think he was just responsable for the appearence wasn't he? either maybe he wasn't aware of other plans for the weapons, or it was a error on his part, he is human after all, when so
many other cannon sources disagree, it's hard to say they are the same, and "same type" could have just meant they where phasers.

well, since there are supposedly what, two Sovies running around... yeah I'm sure some Galaxy classes did recieve some quanums, but I tought we where comparing the whole classes of them and not specific ships, like the Defiant has a cloaking device but no other Defiant class vessel does.. and even if you give the Galxy
Quantums, you don't have the 4/sec turret or the extra launchers...

I mean, if we are going to talk about what we can give them lets just give them Transphasic Torpedos and them them destroy eachother at the same time.... :/

I believe you are thinking of the Prometheus prototype. I don't recall this being mentioned in any of the movies with the Enterprise-E. A check of Memory Alpha supports this.

We don't know what other kinds of ships have this tech, if any, or if it can be retrofitted. Since it was mentioned as a feature of a new prototype, it is likely a very new thing, and not necessarily found on ships that were designed years and years before that prototype.
no I mean the Sovy, which was constructed after the Prommy as far as I'm aware, it's mentioned in one of the Technical manuals, or something like that that she has them, allthough I dobt they are as effect as the Prommies due to the size of the shield that has to be generated and all, I wish I remember what reference it was, but it had cannon writers like
the TNG Tech manual does...

so yeah she has them or was supposed to, they don't hold up well though....

I'm not suggesting there aren't plenty of other duties that need attention during the Dominion War, or that those duties are in any way less important. I do object to the view of any Sovereign-class ship as a fanboyish uberwarship vastly outperforming the Galaxy class or any other for defensive duties; it at least needs to be considered that ships of the class were not shown fighting the war, Enterprise-E was shown on rather less dangerous duties in our glimpse of her during the war, and it is possible to conclude from the rare sightings that the Sovereign class was a very limited run or had problems or something.
unerwarshp? lol well I do think allot of people forgot that she is an explorer just like those before her, but she was again designed with a strong militaristic view as well, and I would imagine that
with all the newer tech, and everything, she would wouldn't be cheap on resources, newer flag-ship worthy vessels rarely ever are...

also of note, her naccelles (ST Magazine) are designed to stop the damage of the fabric of space as was mentioned in TNG, so unless the Galaxys got upggraded, they may seem to go so slow because they aren't allowd to go any faster?
then if you have to you have to....

but looking at the warp values in ST The Magazine and other sources, she is faster, but I get what your saying at times it seems as if she's to fast....

I think it isn't ust the speed of the SOv here, I think theres other factors...

I don't think there was anything wrong with the design though, if there wasa maor flaw, we'd know by now, there would be a problem with the E, and it doesn't need any with
the situations it finds it self in... lol

if there was and they fixed it, then it's fixable so still... unless it cost to many resources...

It was during the war, and not only that, but Picard complains about the Enterprise being asked to put out "one more brush fire," as if they'd been doing these sorts of missions for a while (kept largely out of the conflict).
hmmm well I thought that phrase was in first contact, or was that chasing asteroids? lol

if from FC, its easily explained, as for Innsurrection, not sure, off course, thats hard evidence because theres no time reference, another as in ust that all month or two or the whole course of the war?

honestly, looking at the Sovy andit's capabilities and them being there during the war, if thats the case, I'd say plot device... cause they could have and should have sent a Galaxy not expecting fowl play but then... we wouldn't have had a movie would we?

I don't know if it is an Explorer. Heavy Cruiser might make more sense, especially if your claims about its lacking accommodations and "diplomatic potential" and focus on combat systems were true. I don't think they are true, but would nevertheless be willing to accept Heavy Cruiser as a compromise toward the idea that the Sovereign class is designed for a slightly less wide range of mission profiles than the Galaxy class.

(Fans grabbed on to the fact that Enterprise-E apparently doesn't carry families as meaning that it was built for war, but I suspect the Galaxy ships carry families and civilian consultants and such because they are designed for independent missions of very long duration (15-20 years, perhaps?). A Sovereign-class ship may be intended for missions of exploration and scientific inquiry that are more limited in scope.)
[/quotes]

but see again, I never said it lacked diplomatic capability I said it lacked diplomatic capability on par with a Galaxy class... I mean come on she was like a flippin space hotel...

thats a good point though, I'm sure because of the Galaxies larger size, theres no doubt you could o further before requiring new fuel and the like, but you know, how much do you need when there
doesn't seem to be a lack of places you can get them, look at Voyager for example, allthough thats a special case, and I'm sure Starfleet wouldn't want a ship to get its materials from just anywhere, for security reasons, but point being

how much do you really need? it seems to me that in the course of that much time, both would need to re-fuel, and surely they could find a place in that much time, how far out are we talking.... I don't really see how the Sovy is limited in range that much...

but if we are talking assignment lentgh, thats another thing but, what about the senior officers assigned to a Sovy, chances are they will be there
for a long time, and they don't bring their families... it seems to me that you ust wouldn't assign anyone to a Sovy class, if theres only two in the fleet, and its a prestigous assiggnment much like the Galaxy was said to be in her hay day, you
would have allot of officers trying to grab a position, not that it's really there choice though...

but if one did put in the effort to get an assignment like that, I'm sure they'd do what they could to keep it, what ever influence they have from gettin transferred, so I doubt its something you really go into expecting to leave soon...

that and the level a famialrarity you probably have to have with the crew to work together efectivley especially on the larger ships, unless your an ensin I doubt it's a short assignment.

50 meter is just an off the cuff remark, i don't know exact dimensions. The sovereign doesn't have them because we can see how tiny they are in MSDS. They look like slow firing Voyager ones.
tech advancement? if not ith a Turret firing 4 at a time max,.... I doubt the others would have to be that fast, not being the main heavy weapon.... if all the alaxy has are those 3 photon launchers then,
yeah I can see them goin faster than a ship that uses them as secondary lunchers...

In Star Trek, bigger is always better.
not so... not so at all

Omega Particle > Warp Core

Transphasic Torpedo > whole savo of Quantum torps

Promethius class > Nebula

forward firing power of the Defiant > that of many larger ships (to a degree)

list goes on....
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Old February 23 2009, 03:37 PM   #29
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

Sovereign had plenty of chances to prove they can, but they never do
and what ship ever has?

we have never seen a Fed ship, fire all fully loaded lunchers and and fire on all arrays... and for mentioned I already stated we probaably never will

also, loading time, if you can load two torps in half the time it takes for 4 (maybe theres a bigger time gap...)

In DS9 "Valiant" we see Nog working on a quantum torpedo that is structurally identical but cosmetically different from a standard photon torpedo. A bit more decoration and labels and crap, probably to indicate it's alot more advanced and sophisticated.
oh like pwered by nVidia or AMD or Intel (ewww) stickers on PC cases lol

Captain's Yacht, which means it can't be much bigger or more sophisticated than the E-D launcher.
ok obviously theres some difference in space with the laucher in relation to the Yacht, again, size does not equal better, the E-D fires what 2 maybe three torps per launcher? and the Sovys turret is rated for 4 at a time so
witout knowledge of loading/reloading/preparation times, and oing on speed the E-E turret is more advanced than the E-D launcher,


for those comparing speed of fireing and torps, keep in mind the difference between Photon and Quantum torps, as well as the fact they keep showing off that turret, don't forget those other three lauchers in front (2 non upgraded)
that the Sov has but rarely uses

so you have 4 Quantums + 2-4 Photons unpgraded/3-6 upgraded per forward salvo... and this isn't conidering the possible that those are tripple luanchers like
what I think the E-D has wish are either 2 or three per launcher...

and for those so still say the presence of families on the Galaxy isn't confirmed, please come on, what about Alexander and all the other children on the E-D, they had a school for crying out loud :/....

If they doubted the Captain, they should have just jailed or shot him and given the good ship to somebody else. They clearly didn't want the ship, either.
oh yeah, cause that would go over so well.....

he didn't do anything wrong, it was a fear that because he as once assimilitaed the borg miht use it to their advantage....

It's worth remembering that the Defiant--which seems to have four forward torpedo tubes--is often described as one of the most heavily armed ships Starfleet has ever built.
over all or per square meter, if the latter, then duh, that little ship is a beast, for her size, nothing but weapons...

also, the Defiant came out before the Sov...


Which may mean the ship wasn't exceptionally good, even though it may have been good, perhaps even somewhat better than all other ships. No point dragging it to the battle, then, when dozens of almost as good ships were already there. Or it may mean the E-E was a real lemon and no good in battle.
a lemon? riht.... look, nobody said she was an end-all ubership... as good as she is, she's only one ship, wars are one with fleets, strength in numbers... they only had 1 confirmed possibly two sovs at the time, maybe they didn't want to lose her, sending her into other situations that would take a couple other ships, so they instead could go fight, cause...

as good as she is at least IMO, if she is mobbed in war by a bunch of ships, she dies anyway....

ships on the front line don't last long.... unless the plot says they do lol

well I'll bbl hopefully I replied to everything directed at me or revelent to the dicusiion which, hey isn't it supposed to be about weather they ave her all Quantums vs some photons... cause it seems to me
the subject is Galaxy vs Sovy LMFAO, which IMO is pointless because even if you dont think the Sovy is as good as generally accepted, being a newer ship with upgraded systems, is more than a match for the aging Galaxy, so the Sovy wins even considering
a very conservative list of specs...

Edit: oh and Regenerative Shielding doesn't simply mean the shields will regenerate with time, all of them do that, with regenerative shielding, there's secondary generators, win the first shield goes down a second one takes its place while the first one recharges.....
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Old February 23 2009, 06:04 PM   #30
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Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

drake, I won't respond to your entire post, because some of it is written in such a way to make me believe you are uninformed (no offense). For example, you say we never see a ship fire all weapons at once, when we clearly have, and I posted a link on the first page. We see Defiant do the same as well.

Now, your idea of power seems to be to count torpedo launchers and think that 4 is better than 2, which is false. Do you think that 4 launchers on Excelsior are superior to two on the Galaxy-class? The reason Galaxy has 2 is because it doesn't need any more. It loads 10 torpedoes every 5 seconds, why would she need more? It's like giving every soldier in the army 5 rifles and saying that soldier is better than one with 1 rifle, well the other 4 are not necessary, because now we have magazines which we can use to replace ammunition quickly. There is no need to carry extra rifles like, say, during the Revolutionary war. That's how it is with the two launchers on Galaxy

I already wrote above that the reason Sov has so many is because they are obviously inferior to the huge Galaxy-class launchers, which is demonstrated on screen by their limited fire, she never fires more than 4 from main turret, and I think 2 from secondary ones, at a slower rate than Galaxy. And I don't even want to talk about the glued on ones above secondary shuttle bay and docking port.

If this torpedo inferiority wasn't the case, she would just have two, I forward, one aft, because that's all you need.
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