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Old February 13 2009, 07:36 PM   #736
TIN_MAN
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

For whatever it's worth, every since I saw Jeffries floorplan sketch of his Herberium/rec room in the "Star Trek Sketch Book" I've wondered whether FJ had access to this before the rest of us, since his secondary hull "botany section" seems to be based on MJ's sketch? Then again, there's quite a bit of difference as well, so maybe it's just a coincedence? Can FalTorPan, or anyone, shed light on this?
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Old February 13 2009, 08:26 PM   #737
RobertScorpio
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
This is my most recent sketch of the cabins on decks 5 and 6...


Even though I haven't sketched out deck 4 yet, the number of cabins in ring 1 of that deck should be similar to the number in ring 1 of deck 6.

Also, you guys might notice that there is a ton of room across the corridor from the cabins in ring 4 on deck 6. That area isn't deep enough for cabins (like what we saw in the show), but there is a lot of room for something else before the deck narrows to a height shorter than normal use.
These are pretty coo..bravo zulu

Rob
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Old February 13 2009, 08:43 PM   #738
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Those are amazing, Shaw.
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Old February 14 2009, 05:16 AM   #739
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I'm rather gratified that Shaw's doing the pilot version of the ship, since the resolution of the bridge question in my plans hinges upon how well the bridge fits under that dome in the pilots.

It'll probably still need some tweaking to fit in a forward facing direction, but I need to know how much tweaking is needed.
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Old February 14 2009, 07:33 AM   #740
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Thanks for the encouragement and input guys!

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
I'm rather gratified that Shaw's doing the pilot version of the ship, since the resolution of the bridge question in my plans hinges upon how well the bridge fits under that dome in the pilots.

It'll probably still need some tweaking to fit in a forward facing direction, but I need to know how much tweaking is needed.
Well, you'll have a larger diameter of the structure to work with, so I'm sure that'll help. The shortening of the structure also cut down it's overall diameter.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
A case in point. Somewhere upthread it's mentioned that the scaling of the filming miniature actually comes out to about 944ft. for a real ship. Do you stick with that or just scale up the ship to 947ft. while retaining all the exact shapes, contours and proportions? Or did I misunderstand what I read?
Oddly enough this reminds me of a part of history I was rather surprise to learn.

I (like others) believed that the original US Navy frigates followed Joshua Humphreys designs very closely, and that frigates of the same rate of those original six would be pretty much equivalent to each other. While discussing this subject with aridas I was informed that the builders of the Constellation had modified the design and made her faster than her sister ships.

The ideal designs that Jefferies made aren't fully reflected in the models. And considering that the Enterprise is actually four large pieces connected by supports, it shouldn't be surprising to find that those pieces aren't in their originally intended positions relative to each other. Beyond the overall length issue, there is the fact that both models have their nacelles closer together than Jefferies had specified.

But we are really talking about half an inch in difference on the actual model. Move the nacelles back that half an inch and you'll get the 947 foot length.

Where did that half an inch go?

Most likely it was a compromise needed for the construction... and there were lots of compromises made. Remember, the model was late (which is why the 33 inch model was used for most of the effects), but they needed the big model for the most important effects shot in The Cage, the zoom-in on the bridge (which was to sell the size of the Enterprise to the audience).

____________

One of those interesting things about the construction of the 11 foot model is that the starboard nacelle doesn't have the trench on it's inboard side like the port nacelle. During the series the trench was actually painted on, but when the Smithsonian got the model they painted over that detail (among others) before putting the model on display.

Here are top and inboard views of where I'm at in my studies of the models nacelles.

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Old February 14 2009, 07:43 AM   #741
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Wow. Your research continues to astonish and inform. I had no idea about the missing trench. It's interesting how assymetrical the 11-footer seems to be.
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Old February 14 2009, 08:20 AM   #742
RobertScorpio
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
It has occurred to me that people aren't going to read this massive thread to find out where I've been coming from and where I am going. Still I urge people to read the thread... at least the first few pages if nothing else. But for those who don't want to review all those posts or don't want to hunt down one of my sketches in this thread, here is a list of the main image files that I've posted to date.
1701_plans_notes-01.jpg
1701_plans_notes-03.jpg
cabin_estimates.jpg
cm_diagram.jpg
internals_001.jpg
internals_002.jpg
internals_003.jpg
internals_004.jpg
internals_005.jpg
internals_006.jpg
internals_007.jpg
internals_008.jpg
internals_009.jpg
internals_010.jpg
internals_011.jpg
internals_012.jpg
internals_013.jpg
internals_014.jpg
internals_015.jpg
internals_016.jpg
internals_017.jpg
internals_018.jpg
internals_019.jpg
internals_020.jpg
internals_021.jpg
internals_022.jpg
internals_023.jpg
internals_024.jpg
internals_025.jpg
internals_026.jpg
internals_027.jpg
internals_028.jpg
internals_029.jpg
internals_030.jpg
internals_031.jpg
internals_031a.jpg
internals_032.jpg
preshull-diagram.jpg
The ones in bold are the best representation of where I'm at right now in my thought on this subject.

Shall...just wanted to say that these are cool...keep it up...

Rob
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Old February 14 2009, 02:54 PM   #743
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw, I gotta tell you, the amount of time and effort that you're putting into this is really showing. These are going to be the most well thought out set of plans that I've ever seen.

Keep up the amazing work!
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Old February 15 2009, 05:29 AM   #744
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I know I brought this one up before... storing the turbolifts... The neck can't be used... in the event of a saucer separation you wouldn't have any turbolifts...

Also I was thinking of something else. You know those three circular windows on the front of the vessel. At least some sources say those are auxiliary navigational deflectors... That would take up some space in the forward saucer.

Another factor that I don't think was ever factored in was fuel.
-> The secondary hull will obviously need fuel-tanks: Hydrogen (not deuterium... there's no point in using deuterium in a matter/anti-matter reaction -- the neutron and anti-neutrons don't annihilate) and anti-Hydrogen.
->The primary hull would need fuel as well as it's where the impulse engines are housed, and the ship would have to be able to use them when separated from the secondary hull. Fusion-drives best work with deuterium and tritium as it produces the most efficient hydrogen-fusion reaction. For all I know there might be a need for a matter/anti-matter drive in the saucer though I have no evidence for this, but you'd need deuterium and tritium tanks.


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Old February 15 2009, 08:11 AM   #745
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Again, I'm going to fall back to the example of Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. If you were to show people of the 1870's a submarine of today, and described it size, crew complement and accommodations, it's duration between refueling, and the amount of time it could stay submerged, and then asked them to come up with how it was done, what do you think their best guesses would be?

Remember that the best physics of the period (James Clerk Maxwell's Electromagnetic Theory) wasn't even widely adopted yet, so those people would be unable to comprehend any of what we take for granted today.

That is a difference of 135 years. Do you really expect to be able to make better predictions of more than 200 years into the future from where we stand today?

How much coal or oil would it take to power a vessel (without the use of sails at all) back in the late 19th century as far as one of our submarines can go between refueling these days? How much space would that fuel take up? How much less space does the reactor core of one of our subs take up today? Would those people comprehend that difference as anything but pure fantasy?

What ever amount of space you think should be devoted for fuel on this ship, divide it by 10... and that'll still be too much.

We don't know how this stuff works. Later Trek did us all a major disservice by attempting to apply today's ideas to tomorrow. What hasn't changed much in the last few hundred years will most likely not change much in the next few hundred years, but what has changed quite a bit will most likely change even more in the next few hundred years. That is how I'm approaching the interiors and why some aspects I'll leave a little space for and say take a guess.

It is funny, the point of using matter/anti-matter was to negate the issue of fuel storage as a problem onboard... but because people think you could burn through it like fuel oil on ships of today, they think a large amount of space has to be set aside for it (mainly thanks to TNG).



As for the three port holes on the front of the primary hull, we never saw what they were for... they were dark in the first pilot, the center one became a navigation light in the second pilot and they were all lit like the other windows by the time of the series. I left the space behind them on deck 6 unoccupied.

Because all the windows we saw from within the ship were rectangular, I'm treating port holes as something else other than windows.
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Old February 15 2009, 07:27 PM   #746
TIN_MAN
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I always assumed that little long thing atop the saucer running from between the impulse engines and reaching almost to the back of th B-C decks was the fuel tanks for the impulse fusion reactors? Not much capacity there, but presumebly you wouldn't need much fuel for an extremely efficiant fusion reactor?
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Old February 15 2009, 09:33 PM   #747
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Tin Man, I always thought that particular piece of equipment was some kind of heat sink/radiator for the impulse reaction system.

And Shaw, I must say one of the reasons I so enthusiastically follow your effort is because of that particular mindset you just described. We can try and try to imagine how a 23rd century starship would work but when it comes down to it, it's like cavemen playing with a book of matches. However, realizing this makes the results of the effort just a little more feasible.
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Old February 16 2009, 04:38 AM   #748
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Praetor wrote: View Post
And Shaw, I must say one of the reasons I so enthusiastically follow your effort is because of that particular mindset you just described. We can try and try to imagine how a 23rd century starship would work but when it comes down to it, it's like cavemen playing with a book of matches. However, realizing this makes the results of the effort just a little more feasible.
My feelings are that we should temper our attempts to retrofit these fictional craft to fit our contemporary views of science and technology... but never stop asking the all important questions of why and how.

I have spent decades in the study of math and science, and have paid more (and owe more) than I've earned directly from those studies... but I regret not a single dollar nor single hour of that investment because it was all spent towards answering my questions of why and how. And most of those questions were born out of watching Star Trek.


Anyways, on a lighter note...

How many people printed out my 33" plans on 24"x36" sheets?

The reason I ask is that the plans I'm working on are one quarter scale to the actual model. And I'm thinking about putting together a special set of printed plans revolving around the birth of Star Trek... the Enterprise of The Cage. These would include a more fleshed out version of Jefferies plans for the models from November of 1964 at 1:1 scale, a modified version of my 33" model plans to reflect how the model looked in December of 1964, and the 1:4 scale plans I'm working on now which are of the 11 foot model as finished at the end of December 1964.

Obviously very little of the information will be new (as I've been sharing my progress all along), but I really think that this stuff should be printed out on paper to get the full effect. Below is me holding one of my early test prints of the 33" model plans.


You can do all sorts of things with images on screen, but seeing these plans (two out of three of them at 1:1 scale) on paper is really how I think they should be viewed for full enjoyment.

... That, and the fact that I love building models and having plans on paper is one step closer to having a physical model.
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Old February 16 2009, 04:57 AM   #749
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I love uber-huge blueprint printouts.
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Old February 16 2009, 08:09 PM   #750
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I printed out a couple sheets of mine full size, but since I don't have that size of paper, it involved using several sheets per page and a good deal of tape.

If I come across them during my current move between storage units (the old one's being taken out to make way for a new hyperspace bypass, er, freeway offramp) I'll take a few pics.
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