What if Kes had stayed instead and...

[teya]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Well what we are all really complaining about is the complication of the manipulation they are using to snare us by our genitals. Sevens boobies are insulting but Spocks eyebrows are intriguing.

Brannon and friends laughably treats us like Pakleds most of the time.

But don't we the viewers make a choice as to how we respond?

Blaming our own reactions on B&B seems rather disingenuous.

[exodus]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Well what we are all really complaining about is the complication of the manipulation they are using to snare us by our genitals. Sevens boobies are insulting but Spocks eyebrows are intriguing.

Brannon and friends laughably treats us like Pakleds most of the time.

But why is it that only to the die hard Trek fans?

The casual or more sexually open veiwer isn't insulted at all by what Seven wears.

If sexuality is part of what it means to be human, why are such things as showing the human form looked down upon? Aren't the curves of a womans body a form of art?

If we as fans are watching a show who theme is tolerance of differences, why are we so hung up on what one woman wears? Where's our tolerance?

[Praetor]

For me personally, it's not what she wore, but rather why the producers did it. I don't have any substantial hangups there. The curves of a woman and the angles of a man are both expressions of 'original' art. When I ignore the producers' motivations and just watch the show, I actually enjoy the character. Having their Barbie be a Borg was a clever way to balance the character, IMHO.

That said, are there only two reasons (ahem) why Kes wasn't considered hot enough to fit the quota? I always thought Kes was very pretty.

[Guy Gardener]

Honestly after 10 years of TNG (And 15 years of comics) I didn't know that catsuits were supposed to be sexy. The illusion of nudity? Come on! Lets be serious, on average the nudity buffer (How long it takes to figure out what some one looks like naked. Coined from the English sitcom Coupling.) is about 5 minutes and that's only because of the difficulty of accessing nipple type. I can see through any clothing. I know what all women look like naked if they'd happen to stand within maybe 15 feet of my eyes attached to this relatively unremarkable brain for the lotted 5 minutes to figure it all out, what they think they're hiding for the sake of bashfulness, from cup size to the width of their gusset and the shape of their knee caps, no matter what they're wearing and no matter how many layers through whatever texture they're keeping between their nudity and my common sense. Yes even Parkers and whale skin leggings up there found in Inuit country. I yawn and guffaw at the cat suit's mistakeability for bare skin and this synthetic nudity held lofty as some sort of respectable light of day pornography for the feeble of imaginativity who can't peel away more than a single layer of 12 nanometer thick jazzercize sweatwear to fathom how flat some gal's ass might be with enough tensile strength resisting against her body to calculate how closely and where she might shave. I had to be told that cat suits were sexy relatively recently since joining this forum and I was quite surprised that some people needed such an overreaching handicap to become stimulated by a sex. Everything I just said goes double for Wesley Crusher and his cat suits he wore during TNG.

Visually, Jeri is about average in my eyes when compared to the rest of the dynamic and physically attractive women on TV, so again, what's the big deal? If everyone inside the idiot box is a Ten, then incredibly unbelievably beautiful is by definition generic.

Booibies are boobies. Every one has them. Jeri's saved the show? Good for her boobies. Hooray for her boobies! Mine are about as big as Jeri's, and all they seem to be good for is keeping my sweat in the ranges of my upper body on hot days to help me stay cool.

As a person, how was Seven attractive?

Her character has no warmth or charm, so forget that. And her intellect is a stamped brand issued to all Borg that every time she makes the rest of the look like a preschooler, she's cheating.

Tragedy? Some men like to be Prince Charming and rescue damaged goods from a horrible situation? But she is so strong because of how stripped her emotional complexity is. She doesn't want to be rescued which makes Prince Charming a redundant role, do we even want to talk about her daddy issues?

Her hair? Her height? Her eyes? Her smile (not that she ever smiled.) Truly is a man pathetic if he does anything but congratulate a womans parents for blindly putting together a jigsaw puzzle so pleasantly, and that goes doubly for boobies too, unless she bought them, which is spitting in her parents face for all their blind jigsawing, and then well if some one has to buy their most attractive feature from a butcher, then you just have to ask why that feature s so incredibly attractive at all? It's still cheating.

Strength? That was pragmatic, which covers bravery too, since if she is a drone, even the totality of her personal collective, although claiming to be member of the Voyager Collective, Drones are for the sacrificing of, which calls into question her concept of self worth? What is she if she isn't borg? How can you fall in love with and consider boinking a person who isn't a person? I suppose most people pretend to be someone else to get through sex, if not add excitement, but if under the layers of her blossoming onion we find "nothing", doesn't that just make her Shrek? To have sex with someone who isn't participating or necessary or making a contribution to the supposedly joint effort isn't sex at all, it's masturbation.

Maybe her reptilian sense of honesty, and black and white conviction of good and bad? can we appreciate her clarity even if from the beginning her reasoning was that black was white, because Borg = goodness. But this is close to what she had Seven of Nine had going on. She knew what she wanted and she told people what that was, most evidently seen when she ordered Kim to disrobe. So really men just want to give into and submit to her, since the only visible sign of a personality this lady had in the beginning is that she was a control freak.

Giving into Seven means being assimilated.

Then of course we have to mention how incredibly sexual the assimilation process is from the perspective of a penetrator and a penatratee, that men what to be penetrated by her, not that there is anything gay about wanted reverse the traditional male/female sexual roles to anyone who actually takes the time to rationalize these thoughts, however if they don't then there's the obvious "am i gay schism/revulsion" trying to break free from the subconscious, but then revulsion is the cornerstone to some of the more interesting fetishes, so we're back to why this character is more attractive than the actress trying her best to be a cross between a frightened child pretending to be on top of every curve ball and a block of lumber since to be Borg is to be fatuous of everything less perfect than themselves.

Seven of Nine was blank.

Anything sexual about her was other people exerting their expectations and desires on her. Or at least that remains mostly true for the first 6 years. Forcing her to be sexual in your or their minds eye is a lie in part and and the miss use use and rape of her character in another in the same way leiah Brahms (is she related to Flint from TOS: Requiem for Methusela?) felt when she thought Jordie was having sex with a hologram of her image, or Kira when Quark was actually trying to make a porno staring Kira's likeness. It's just the quintessentially disrespectful in almost every way, not that Seven wasn't boinking a hologram of Chakotay without his express permission to for his likness to be pleasuring her emotinally and physically... Or did she?

I loathed Baywatch.

Maybe this is all about me being afraid of my own erection?

O.

I remember now. It was the health issues. How she couldn't breath properly and kept fainting in the original catsuit. That the appearance of beauty was worth strangling her. Not that consensual choking isn't quite nice now and then, but it all got kicked up to another level when I told a friend about the poor state of affairs that they would treat this actress so inhumanely and he replies that he'd like some time with her while she's passed out from wearing the cat suit, as if she's more sexual to go when she's asleep, because if someones clothing is more beautiful than the actual person, then really shouldn't anyone one be the same beautiful if they wore the same cat suit? And really? If the cat suit is all that? What do we need with the woman at all? Just staple her costume to the wall and use it for a background drop when the other characters are being sexless and boring in the foreground.

Men are pigs.

[teya]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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I remember now. It was the health issues. How she couldn't breath properly and kept fainting in the original catsuit.
Men are pigs.

Actually, it was the Borg suit. Jeri has said that over and over and over and over.

The costumers neglected to take into account the bald cap which made the neck of the Borg costume too tight. It cut off circulation through her carotid. They fixed it.

As to the rest of your post, frankly, I have no idea what you're talking about. It seems you don't like the character. It seems you have issues with those who do. You don't think Jeri's attractive.

OK, fine. I disagree.

[Guy Gardener]

I like the character, I just don't want to sleep with her. I like many of the characters and don't want to sleep with them.

Although I want to sleep with Janeway because I hate her.

[teya]

Okay, then....

[kimc]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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I like the character, I just don't want to sleep with her. I like many of the characters and don't want to sleep with them.

Although I want to sleep with Janeway because I hate her.

Guy, your creepy filter is off again. Please re-activate before posting again. Thank you.

[Praetor]

Guy did make some excellent points, nonetheless. The expectation/depiction of sexy and the actuality of it, for Seven or any similar T&A character, are wholly different matters.

[teya]

Praetor wrote:

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Guy did make some excellent points, nonetheless. The expectation/depiction of sexy and the actuality of it, for Seven or any similar T&A character, are wholly different matters.

As I said a page back...

I've always chosen to look at Seven's costume as ironic, rather than sexist. She looks the way she does, but she's far from sexy.

[Guy Gardener]

The Doctor is her tailor. Barber too, at least in the beginning. Plastic surgeon and professor of humanities as well as her singing coach.

At every turn he sculpted her into a vision of his artificial depiction of perfection.

He built himself a dream girl.

And by the time our Doctor finally summoned the courage to ask Seven on a date in endgame, she'd already hooked up with the Indian.

He was in love with Kes too.

But he sat on those feelings.

(Yes, yes, Barclay (So to some small degree was the doctor's father.) wrote the Doctor's interpersonal subroutines, so no wonder he worked himself into a corner trying to find himself a mate.)

[Praetor]

teya wrote:

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As I said a page back...

Oh, apologies, I missed that somehow. Musta been reading too fast.

Accidentally ironic, though, wouldn't you say?

[Octavia]

To get back on topic, I would have liked to see Kes' relationship with Janeway alter over the seven years. Kes' life span would have changed those boundaries considerably - had it been allowed to happen. In earlier years, when Kes is (by her standards) young, Janeway sometimes acted as mentor. Had Kes not been dropped when she was, her advanced maturation would have seen her at a similar age to Janeway for a couple of years - and Janeway could have used a close female friend, to my mind. In the latter portion of the show, when Kes was that much more mature, she could have joined Tuvok as mentor to Janeway.

Throw in some additional work socialising Seven and the EMH, and getting rid of any interaction with Neelix, would have improved her character out of sight. I quite liked Kes, but there was no denying she was underused in the seasons she was on the show.

[Tachyon]

Yeah, I think that breaking up with Neelix was definitely improvement for her character.

[exodus]

Tachyon wrote:

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^And how is a random Orion Slave girl dancing six seconds on screen per episode compared to one of the main characters? Like Seven would say - your comparison is flawed.

So is your logic if your saying a woman in a full body leotard is more offensive than a woman who is a slave and prostitute just based on status.