What if Kes had stayed instead and...

[Praetor]

I think it's an interesting idea. I could see Kes helping rehumanize Seven instead of the Doc, perhaps using her psychic abilities to benefit somehow. Obviously, Seven would probably become the Ops officer, which frankly makes more sense than giving her a non-position as they did.

I wonder if they would have actually let Kes age? If so it would have been interesting if she transitioned from a sisterly relationship to Seven, into more of a mentorship, and then finally Kes dies and the first real human moment Seven has is this - she cries. It would also be interesting if Kes turned into a Jean Grey and came back to life via her psychic powers.

That would have been cool.

[Guy Gardener]

O! And every now and then Kes teaches & about how to embrace her ocampaninity instead of sevens humanity, teaching the woman the wrong set of heredity morality each of there species figured out over the last few thousand years. Given that she's a blank slate, why human? Just because she is human it doesn't mean that she couldn't have tried to embrace a "superior" culture like Vulcaninity for instance? Plenty of non humans worth emulating... because lets face it, neither the Doctor or Kes are qualified to teach 7 about how to be a good human being, but they seem to have it pat down for how to be a decent "person".

[Praetor]

True enough.

[Lynx]

exodus wrote:

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Because you've never met the actress in person.

Many who do, even convention promoters have called her behavior unusual.

So what? There are a lot of "unusual" persons in showbiz. William Shatner is said not to be the nicest person around but no one fabricates any rumors about him.

I must admit that I do find the constant slurs against Jennifer Lien distasteful, to say the least.

[Lynx]

Praetor wrote:

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I think it's an interesting idea. I could see Kes helping rehumanize Seven instead of the Doc, perhaps using her psychic abilities to benefit somehow. Obviously, Seven would probably become the Ops officer, which frankly makes more sense than giving her a non-position as they did.

I wonder if they would have actually let Kes age? If so it would have been interesting if she transitioned from a sisterly relationship to Seven, into more of a mentorship, and then finally Kes dies and the first real human moment Seven has is this - she cries. It would also be interesting if Kes turned into a Jean Grey and came back to life via her psychic powers.

That would have been cool.

I do agree with some of your points here. If someone would have been a great support for Seven, the it would have been Kes.

Just remember The Doctor in the beginning of the series. He was nothing but a hologram, programmed with bad personal behavior and almost everyone on the ship found him annoying. But not Kes!

She showed compassion for The Doctor, she told him that he was actually a sentient being despite being only a hologram and helped The Doctor to start looking at himself as such as well. She also made the crew start treating The Doctor with respect and in a short time, everyone saw The Doctor as a colleague instead of just a program. Not to mention that she actually saved The Doctor too, in "The Swarm" when she came up with a brilliant solution for the problem.

If Kes could do that for a program, she would have had even better chance with a living person.

As for the aging and death scene, I could live without that. I've had more than enought of such scenes in syrupy soap operas. Besides that, as I've pointed out before, there would have been problems with the make up. Actors with make up which would make them look old just look terrible, it looks more like some disease than real aging.

As for the "Jean Grey" thing, now that's actually interesting. But a prolonging of the lifespan would have been better.

[exodus]

Lynx wrote:

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So what? There are a lot of "unusual" persons in showbiz. William Shatner is said not to be the nicest person around but no one fabricates any rumors about him.

I must admit that I do find the constant slurs against Jennifer Lien distasteful, to say the least.

What are you even talking about? People have written entire books about the rumors and details of William Shatner.

If being called "unusual" is a slur in your book, then you should read what people have to say about Robert Beltran, Avery Brooks, Kate Mulgrew or tons of other celebs. Even you yourself have used rumors about other actors to deflect them from Lien. How is that any less distasteful and not slanderous? If you can do it, others can too.

No actor or celeb. is immune to public opinion & critique. It's part of the job they're willing accept when they step in front of the camera. Only those that don't understand that fact end up making spectacls of themselves like Chris Crocker crying to leave Britney alone.

[Lynx]

exodus wrote:

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What are you even talking about? People have written entire books about the rumors and details of William Shatner.

If being called "unusual" is a slur in your book, then you should read what people have to say about Robert Beltran, Avery Brooks, Kate Mulgrew or tons of other celebs. Even you yourself have used rumors about other actors to deflect them from Lien. How is that any less distasteful and not slanderous? If you can do it, others can too.

No actor or celeb. is immune to public opinion & critique. It's part of the job they're willing accept when they step in front of the camera. Only those that don't understand that fact end up making spectacls of themselves like Chris Crocker crying to leave Britney alone.

Well, I'm not only referring to the "unusual" comment in this matter, I'm referring to much worse things.

As for me using rumors about other actors to deflect them from Lien, I guess that the only rumor I have referred to in that case is the rumor which did start about another actor when it come to certain things and I did at least have the grace not to name who it was and also had the grace to state that this rumor has never been confirmed either.

As for spectacles, there are certain people making spectacles of themselves on certain forums which is a reason that I avoid posting there. Fortunately this forum is friendly (and well-moderated as well) and I think that it's in our common interest to keep it that way too.

[exodus]

Lynx wrote:

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Well, I'm not only referring to the "unusual" comment in this matter, I'm referring to much worse things.

As for me using rumors about other actors to deflect them from Lien, I guess that the only rumor I have referred to in that case is the rumor which did start about another actor when it come to certain things and I did at least have the grace not to name who it was and also had the grace to state that this rumor has never been confirmed either.

As for spectacles, there are certain people making spectacles of themselves on certain forums which is a reason that I avoid posting there. Fortunately this forum is friendly (and well-moderated as well) and I think that it's in our common interest to keep it that way too.

I'll keep that in mind next time you personally question me why I post in certain threads.

[kimc]

Okay - for those just tuning in the thread is about what it would have been like if Kes stayed on Voyager. What certain posters are willing or not willing to let go shouldn't be entering into it.

Carry on.

[Lynx]

So let's go back on topic then.

I think that Kes could have contributed a lot to the show if she had stayed. She would have been a good support to Seven, she would have been a good counselor as well and her mental abilities could have been used for some interesting episodes.

[Tachyon]

Takeru wrote:

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The obvious choice would be Seven.

But that would have most likely meant that there would have not been Astrometrics onboard Voyager.

Or... perhaps there would have been. Perhaps Seven and B'Elanna had to build it together. And since Harry was B'Elanna's buddy, she would have had another reason to resent Seven, and being stuck with her in such an assigment would have not made her any happier either. Now Kes on the other hand would have tried to guide Seven through the possible difficulties of working with another individual without the ability to be as "one mind". B'Elanna, who has practically nothing in common with Kes, would have not liked her hanging around them. So it could have been an interesting storyline for an episode - three so different persons trying to find a common ground while Chakotay was in the background keeping taps how their work progressed.

[Tachyon]

Praetor wrote:

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I think it's an interesting idea. I could see Kes helping rehumanize Seven instead of the Doc, perhaps using her psychic abilities to benefit somehow. Obviously, Seven would probably become the Ops officer, which frankly makes more sense than giving her a non-position as they did.

That would have altered Doctor's character development as well. Most likely at least. This whole thread is about speculation in the first place. So I speculate.

Perhaps both Seven and The Doc would have remained more on a same level in their social abilities and Kes would have had to step up more as a mentor for them both. I would have rather seen Kes mothering Seven instead of Janeway as well, because the whole "mother goose" thing Janeway had was a turn off for me. Never cared to see that. Of course that would have not been a lot of character growth for Kes, but it could have provided interesting sub-plots, like Kes had with Doctor in an episode "Tattoo".

[Lynx]

Tachyon wrote:

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That would have altered Doctor's character development as well. Most likely at least. This whole thread is about speculation in the first place. So I speculate.

Perhaps both Seven and The Doc would have remained more on a same level in their social abilities and Kes would have had to step up more as a mentor for them both. I would have rather seen Kes mothering Seven instead of Janeway as well, because the whole "mother goose" thing Janeway had was a turn off for me. Never cared to see that. Of course that would have not been a lot of character growth for Kes, but it could have provided interesting sub-plots, like Kes had with Doctor in an episode "Tattoo".

Some good suggestions here. As for the "mother-daughter" thing, Kes could have supported Seven in the same way as Janeway supported Kes.

As for Kim, despite the suggestion for the thread that Kim should have been dumped, I would still like to keep him as well. They could probably have found something interesting for Seven to do anyway. In fact, both Seven and B'Elanna in Engineering could have been interesting, two persons who didn't like each other but still had to cooperate. Maybe Kes could have been of some help here too.

[exodus]

The only thing the that throws all of this out of whack, is the actually behind the scenes fueds. How do you give Kes and others those roles when Kate Mulgrew is giving the writers/producers hell because she wants more or equal screne time to Jeri Ryan? That's what put everyone else at a disadvantage and why Lien probably would still get very little screen time with Ryan to be that character suggested.

[Praetor]

Wasn't Mulgrew's whole thing because she felt threatened by what they were doing with Seven in the first place?