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Old February 9 2009, 05:13 PM   #16
Anika Hanson
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

I dont think it would have made any difference if she had stayed or Harry stayed both characters brought little to the show. What might have worked is if they had spent more time dealing with her psycho-kinetic abilities. I think her transforming into a non-corperal being was very anti-climatic.
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Old February 9 2009, 05:19 PM   #17
exodus
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

We saw Kes' future in "Before & After", it wasn't very interesting.

She never used or explored her abilities, she didn't do much of any extraordinary in life and didn't achieve anything she couldn't have on Ocampa. I think the writers basical told us, they didn't have much of a plan for Kes going forward.
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Old February 9 2009, 05:29 PM   #18
jongredic
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

exodus wrote: View Post
We saw Kes' future in "Before & After", it wasn't very interesting.

She never used or explored her abilities, she didn't do much of any extraordinary in life and didn't achieve anything she couldn't have on Ocampa.

Really?! Dead Janeway, dead Torres, a Doctor with hair, Neelix actually doing something outside of the Mess Hall and an unnerving amount of borderline inappropriate intermarrying with children and bridge officers?

There's practical half a season's worth of The O.C. material there

Unless you just mean Kes herself... in which case, it did look pretty humdrum.
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Old February 9 2009, 05:32 PM   #19
exodus
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

jongredic wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
We saw Kes' future in "Before & After", it wasn't very interesting.

She never used or explored her abilities, she didn't do much of any extraordinary in life and didn't achieve anything she couldn't have on Ocampa.

Really?! Dead Janeway, dead Torres, a Doctor with hair, Neelix actually doing something outside of the Mess Hall and an unnerving amount of borderline inappropriate intermarrying with children and bridge officers?

There's practical half a season's worth of The O.C. material there


For everyone else, yes. not for her.

She'd be like the old girl from the original 90210. Everyone else is living up life except for you because you're kinda dull.
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Old February 9 2009, 07:23 PM   #20
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Josh_Lyman wrote: View Post
If kes had stayed, Voyager probably would have been canceled after the 4th season. She would have brought the show down with her.
That statement is downright ridiculous. I also find it provocative.

As a matter of fact, the only time you show up here is to write some nasty and provoking one-line comment about Kes and/or Jennifer Lien.

This is called trolling. Now that might be allowed on the startrek.com forum but I don't think it is allowed here.
Are you a MOD now?
No. I'm only pointing out the obvious.

We saw Kes' future in "Before & After", it wasn't very interesting.

She never used or explored her abilities, she didn't do much of any extraordinary in life and didn't achieve anything she couldn't have on Ocampa. I think the writers basical told us, they didn't have much of a plan for Kes going forward.
Well, they didn't have much of a plan for the other characters either, as we could see in the later seasons of the show.

As for Kes, she was never dull. I could easily point out 8-10 dull, or at least rather bland Star Trek characters and Kes is not among them.

Kes was smart and brave. In a way a complement to more standard female action characters like Janeway, Torres and Seven.
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Old February 9 2009, 08:40 PM   #21
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

Compromise. Would they have let Jen stay if she got a boobjob?

Tom "Where did those puppies come from??!!"

Kes "Ocampan Growthspurt."

Tom "Puberty?"

Kes "Sounds about right."

Anyone with ginormous boobies could have "saved" the show.
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Old February 9 2009, 08:52 PM   #22
Warp Coil
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

I don't see how keeping Kes would have been any worse than keeping Harry. I mean, really, did he have any interesting character traits? Did he do anything significant over the course of the 7 seasons? Absolutely not. The problem with Kes - and many, many other characters in the VOY/ENT era - is that the writers never took the time to make them interesting, multi-faceted people. Janeway, the Doctor, B'Elanna and eventually Seven of Nine received a lot of character development. Chakotay, Tuvok, Harry, Tom, Kes and Neelix? Pretty underdeveloped, if you ask me.

The most interesting bits of Kes were were developing mental powers, and her Ocampan life cycle. If Kes had made it to the seventh season, there would have been the potential for some interesting stories about her impending death, and whether or not the crew would try to find a way to save her. There could have been some great drama involving the Doctor struggling to find a way to prolong her life because he doesn't want her to die.
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Old February 9 2009, 09:28 PM   #23
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

Lynx wrote: View Post
Josh_Lyman wrote: View Post
If kes had stayed, Voyager probably would have been canceled after the 4th season. She would have brought the show down with her.
That statement is downright ridiculous. I also find it provocative.

As a matter of fact, the only time you show up here is to write some nasty and provoking one-line comment about Kes and/or Jennifer Lien.

This is called trolling. Now that might be allowed on the startrek.com forum but I don't think it is allowed here.

That is a very interesting idea but Jennifer Lien would have screwed it up because of her poor acting abilities
Jennifer Lien's acting abilities gave her an important role in the highly rewarded movie "American History X". That's more thhan many other Star trek actors have achieved.
Josh_Lyman: Please read the board rules particularly the sections on trolling if you wish to continue posting here.

Lynx: Please leave the modding to the mods.

Any comments to pm.
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Old February 9 2009, 09:51 PM   #24
exodus
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

That statement is downright ridiculous. I also find it provocative.

As a matter of fact, the only time you show up here is to write some nasty and provoking one-line comment about Kes and/or Jennifer Lien.

This is called trolling. Now that might be allowed on the startrek.com forum but I don't think it is allowed here.
Are you a MOD now?
No. I'm only pointing out the obvious.

We saw Kes' future in "Before & After", it wasn't very interesting.

She never used or explored her abilities, she didn't do much of any extraordinary in life and didn't achieve anything she couldn't have on Ocampa. I think the writers basical told us, they didn't have much of a plan for Kes going forward.
Well, they didn't have much of a plan for the other characters either, as we could see in the later seasons of the show.

As for Kes, she was never dull. I could easily point out 8-10 dull, or at least rather bland Star Trek characters and Kes is not among them.

Kes was smart and brave. In a way a complement to more standard female action characters like Janeway, Torres and Seven.
Maybe to you, not to me.

Kes was the the dullest main cast member of any Trek I've seen, especially if they weren't going to explore her aging or abilities. Smart and brave can also describe the family dog, I don't find that special. Harry atleast made for a good victim character & Wang could read technobabble like a champ.

I see Janeway & Torres picking up the mantal of strong woman in leadership started by Kira. Seven picks up after Jadzia Dax, an incredably beautiful woman not to be underestimated due to the knowledge she has. Kes too me is a throw back to TNG, a care giver not a leader. I don't see Kes fitting the progressive female image Voyager had going for it.
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Last edited by exodus; February 9 2009 at 10:01 PM.
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Old February 9 2009, 10:00 PM   #25
Lynx
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Are you a MOD now?
No. I'm only pointing out the obvious.

We saw Kes' future in "Before & After", it wasn't very interesting.

She never used or explored her abilities, she didn't do much of any extraordinary in life and didn't achieve anything she couldn't have on Ocampa. I think the writers basical told us, they didn't have much of a plan for Kes going forward.
Well, they didn't have much of a plan for the other characters either, as we could see in the later seasons of the show.

As for Kes, she was never dull. I could easily point out 8-10 dull, or at least rather bland Star Trek characters and Kes is not among them.

Kes was smart and brave. In a way a complement to more standard female action characters like Janeway, Torres and Seven.
Maybe to you, not to me.

Kes was the the dullest main cast member of any Trek I've seen, especially if they weren't going to explore her aging or abilities. Smart and brave can also describe the family dog, I don't find that special. Harry atleast made for a good victim character & Wang could read technobabble like a champ.
My statement stands. Kes is a great character and there are characters who are much more dull than her.

By the way, how come you only post in Kes threads?
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Old February 9 2009, 10:03 PM   #26
exodus
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

No. I'm only pointing out the obvious.



Well, they didn't have much of a plan for the other characters either, as we could see in the later seasons of the show.

As for Kes, she was never dull. I could easily point out 8-10 dull, or at least rather bland Star Trek characters and Kes is not among them.

Kes was smart and brave. In a way a complement to more standard female action characters like Janeway, Torres and Seven.
Maybe to you, not to me.

Kes was the the dullest main cast member of any Trek I've seen, especially if they weren't going to explore her aging or abilities. Smart and brave can also describe the family dog, I don't find that special. Harry atleast made for a good victim character & Wang could read technobabble like a champ.
My statement stands. Kes is a great character and there are characters who are much more dull than her.

By the way, how come you only post in Kes threads?
I post in many forums all over the entire board, you already know this because you've been a member here just as long as I have. Why do you worship her like a God?


I don't question where you post, do I?
Don't go digging for trouble, Lynx.
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Last edited by exodus; February 10 2009 at 09:04 PM.
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Old February 9 2009, 10:12 PM   #27
Lynx
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

Warp Coil wrote: View Post
I don't see how keeping Kes would have been any worse than keeping Harry. I mean, really, did he have any interesting character traits? Did he do anything significant over the course of the 7 seasons? Absolutely not. The problem with Kes - and many, many other characters in the VOY/ENT era - is that the writers never took the time to make them interesting, multi-faceted people. Janeway, the Doctor, B'Elanna and eventually Seven of Nine received a lot of character development. Chakotay, Tuvok, Harry, Tom, Kes and Neelix? Pretty underdeveloped, if you ask me.

The most interesting bits of Kes were were developing mental powers, and her Ocampan life cycle. If Kes had made it to the seventh season, there would have been the potential for some interesting stories about her impending death, and whether or not the crew would try to find a way to save her. There could have been some great drama involving the Doctor struggling to find a way to prolong her life because he doesn't want her to die.
Personally I find Kes's personality the most interesting with the character. She's nice and friendly but also smart, brave and curious.

One interesting ability is her way to overcome obstacles by simply moving around them and attack them from another angle, just like she did in "Resolutions" when she persuaded Tuvok to go back after Janeway and Chakotay. When Kim tried the same thing, Tuvok almost had him face a court-martial.

Or in "Jetrel" when Neelix is blaming himself for being a coward who deserted from the army. Kes asks him what the punishment for deserting was and Neelix replies "death". Kes then asks him how he could see himself as a coward when he actually risked his life for something he believed in, in this case the refusal to participate in a war he didn't want any part of.

I agree that her mental abilities are exciting as well (at least they were until "The Gift" when they became ridiculous but there was a reason for that). However, the lifespan was silly and didn't make any sense. No species with such a short lifespan could develope to anything more than a primate.

I do have a feeling that those in charge were about to prolong her lifespan in some way. There were hints for that, most notably in "Cold Fire". It would have saved them from a make-up problem. It's easy to create a Klingon, talaxian or Vidiian with the help of make-up but people made to look old actually look terrible. It looks artificial in some way, more like the result of some disease than real aging.
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Old February 10 2009, 02:35 AM   #28
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

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I'd have had her get assimilated by the Borg, then later rescued and deassimilated...only the Borg would have left her with an icy, dominatrix-like personality, and certain "Borg implants" in the chest area if you catch my drift. She'd have ditched the name "Kes" and been known only by a Borg designation. The Doc would have pined for her, Kim would have had the hots but given up rather quickly, but in the end she'd have randomly been in a thing with Chakotay out of left field.

Man, it would have been awesome.
I have to disagree here. That would have been character destruction. It was bad enough with that silly Borg Queen in TNG, wimpering around Picard like some lovesick schoolgirl. The Borg Queen was one of the nails in the Borg coffin.

As for Kes, I think she is a fascinating and interesting character as she is. No need to change that.

In fact, Seven would have been better as a Borg queen (but not wimpy as the original one). They should have gone for that solution for about two seasons, with Seven as Voyager's nemesis. Then she could have ben captured and became the Seven we did see in the later seasons, the one who tried to become human ahgain.
I knew you'd come out and be tweaked by this, no matter how obviously I was kidding. But despite your deep and abiding love of this character who was an airball from day one, the creator of Kes, the actor who played Kes and the studio people who signed both their checks did all agree that Kes either had to be radically altered somehow or get the boot. All kidding aside, I wonder if a story arc where we lost a regular to the Borg for a while and got them back might have been an interesting alternate take on the territory explored with Seven. Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress, at least for a while, but the possibilities are intriguing.
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Old February 10 2009, 07:48 AM   #29
Lynx
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

JNG wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
JNG wrote: View Post
I'd have had her get assimilated by the Borg, then later rescued and deassimilated...only the Borg would have left her with an icy, dominatrix-like personality, and certain "Borg implants" in the chest area if you catch my drift. She'd have ditched the name "Kes" and been known only by a Borg designation. The Doc would have pined for her, Kim would have had the hots but given up rather quickly, but in the end she'd have randomly been in a thing with Chakotay out of left field.

Man, it would have been awesome.
I have to disagree here. That would have been character destruction. It was bad enough with that silly Borg Queen in TNG, wimpering around Picard like some lovesick schoolgirl. The Borg Queen was one of the nails in the Borg coffin.

As for Kes, I think she is a fascinating and interesting character as she is. No need to change that.

In fact, Seven would have been better as a Borg queen (but not wimpy as the original one). They should have gone for that solution for about two seasons, with Seven as Voyager's nemesis. Then she could have ben captured and became the Seven we did see in the later seasons, the one who tried to become human ahgain.
I knew you'd come out and be tweaked by this, no matter how obviously I was kidding. But despite your deep and abiding love of this character who was an airball from day one, the creator of Kes, the actor who played Kes and the studio people who signed both their checks did all agree that Kes either had to be radically altered somehow or get the boot. All kidding aside, I wonder if a story arc where we lost a regular to the Borg for a while and got them back might have been an interesting alternate take on the territory explored with Seven. Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress, at least for a while, but the possibilities are intriguing.
I knew that you were kidding but I decided to write down my view anyway in case someone would take your suggestions seriously.

However, I don't understand why "Kes Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress". If that comment has something to do with certain rumors which have been fabricated, spread and exaggerated, I must inform you that those rumors have never been confirmed in any way.

As for the comment about "the creator of Kes, the actor who played Kes and the studio people who signed both their checks did all agree that Kes either had to be radically altered somehow or get the boot", well most of that are after-constructions made to justify why the character was kicked out, not the exact reason.

As for the suggestion about someone "lost" to the Borg, well we already had that scenario with Seven. Personally I still think that a scenario with Seven as main villain for two seasons after which she would have been captured could have been more interesting.

Or maybe they should have avoided the Borg as much as possible. They started to be uninteresting already in TNG.
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Old February 10 2009, 09:56 PM   #30
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Re: What if Kes had stayed instead and...

Lynx wrote: View Post

However, I don't understand why "Kes Kes would still have been out due to stuff going on with the actress". If that comment has something to do with certain rumors which have been fabricated, spread and exaggerated, I must inform you that those rumors have never been confirmed in any way.
Because you've never met the actress in person.

Many who do, even convention promoters have called her behavior unusual.
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