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Old February 6 2009, 07:58 PM   #31
Thor Damar
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
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Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post

Well...remember that the Dominion HAD demonstrated its genocidal tendencies before. Had Bashir not intervened, the Teplans would've been wiped out slowly by the Blight. And I'm afraid my memory isn't really doing so well on this question, but I think the Dominion had killed other races as well--and threatened to do so to Cardassia before Dukat's alliance. Dukat was arrogant...incredibly arrogant...to think he could keep that in check! If it's anybody's fault, it was Dukat's.

Maybe there was a poetic justice element...but to me, it was most importantly a comment on the consequences of Dukat's supreme arrogance.

Agreed on the above, Dukat's arrogance got the better of him. And he obveriously thought the desperate times call for desperate measures yet the Feds had exetended an open hand to the new Civilian government on Cardassia, but Dukat needed that Statute .
But did the Federation REALLY back the Cardassians against the Klingon invasion? Were they really ready to put it all on the line to keep their former so-called "allies" from going after Cardassia? I don't think so--to me it seems like they decided they needed their little alliance more than they were willing to stand up for a democratic government in need. It was all about expediency as far as the Federation was concerned...or so it seems, anyway--they just don't admit it.

(This, of course, still does not excuse Dukat, not in the slightest. But it does make me think that he wouldn't have had as much of an opening to get away with what he did, had the circumstances been different.)

And I look forward to the continuation of your essay!

Once more you have hit the nail on it's head! I think that I was being to kind the the UFP but there was always another way for Cardassia... if I just knew what that was I'd be a happy little Cardie! I will address this more when I actually get round to the Cardassian Union and Dukat's Role.

Part 2 will be up soon I'm just working out how to do justice to the great Romluan people!
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Old February 6 2009, 08:48 PM   #32
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

if you wanna good look at Klingon society, read Klingon Empire: A Burning House. meet Klingon farmers, Klingon opera stars, Klingon politicians as well as the continuing adventures of the crew of IKS Gorkon, stars of the eponymous 3-book series that KE replaces. (KE:ABH can be read seperately, but your appreciation will be enhanced by reading the GKN trilogy)
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Old February 7 2009, 04:19 PM   #33
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Amen to Thor Damar! Klingons are simply stupid. "You have offended me. I fight you." They'd never get anywhere that way, always infighting. Cardassians were the closest to having a fascist vibe, too, which is a cool feel, even the way they stand.

Garak is my favorite Trek character ever, and I'd even nominate pre-Pagh Dukat as one of my top-3. When he gets into self-justifying mode, not only does he believe it, but if some of what he says is true, he actually did do some good, spare some Bajorans, while occupying them. Kira is unable to consider that. He is simply "bad" to her; this sets up one of the "good guys" (Kira) actually being morally blindered (a bit), though of course she had her reasons.

Post-ers have all commented on villain races. What about Vulcans?
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Old February 7 2009, 07:20 PM   #34
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

plynch wrote: View Post
Amen to Thor Damar! Klingons are simply stupid. "You have offended me. I fight you." They'd never get anywhere that way, always infighting. Cardassians were the closest to having a fascist vibe, too, which is a cool feel, even the way they stand.

Garak is my favorite Trek character ever, and I'd even nominate pre-Pagh Dukat as one of my top-3. When he gets into self-justifying mode, not only does he believe it, but if some of what he says is true, he actually did do some good, spare some Bajorans, while occupying them. Kira is unable to consider that. He is simply "bad" to her; this sets up one of the "good guys" (Kira) actually being morally blindered (a bit), though of course she had her reasons.

Post-ers have all commented on villain races. What about Vulcans?

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "Fascist vibe" aspect of the Cardassians, I never though it was cool and it seems to be a common failing in Star Trek to have an entire race represent an existing ideology. Let alone for the rather obvious reason that Fascism is deeply unappealing (to say the least).
Dukat did over see the occupation of Bajor which saw the deaths of Millions of Bajorians so any "reforms" that he undertook could not forgive his crimes as the perfect of Bajor.

As for the Vulcans I do not find them very interesting at all. Now, as for their sundered cousins...
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Old February 7 2009, 08:52 PM   #35
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Due to problems logging in and my own massive incompetence, my post on the Romulan Star Empire has been destroyed! I will try to post another version at a later date and hopefully In will get it right this time.
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Old February 7 2009, 09:55 PM   #36
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I think that what made the Cardassians interesting was that unlike either the Romulans or the Klingons, the Cardassians actually had a real history. Even before DS9 we learned that Cardassia had something of a tragic past. People starved on Cardassia. It was the militarization of their society that "saved" them. They are are a people with a big ego yet have a huge inferiority complex. Joining the Dominion was perfectly rational from their point of view. For several years they attempted a rapproachment with the Federation and tried to reform their society. What did they get for their efforts....an invasion by the Klingons. Even though the Federation saved the civilian government (or rather Sisko did without getting permission from Starfleet) and suspended their treaty with the Klingons, they ultimately did nothing to help repell the unwaranted Klingon agression. The Dominion came to their aid in their hour of need (even though the Dominion instigated the whole thing). To then have the Dominion start treating them like a subject race was a humiliation too far.

What's equally interesting about the Cardassians is that they are the ONLY Alpha Quadrant Emprie in which we are shown one of their subject races. Bajor and the occupation have been a big reason why the Cardassians seem much more complex. We've NEVER seen one of the Klingon or Romulan conquered worlds (and we know that they must exist since the Federation is constantly finding inhabited worlds in its own space (plus we saw the Klingons attempt to woo worlds into their camp back in TOS). How much more interesting might the Klingons be if we saw them through the eyes of other races that were incorporated into the Empire.
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Old February 8 2009, 03:42 AM   #37
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "Fascist vibe" aspect of the Cardassians, I never though it was cool and it seems to be a common failing in Star Trek to have an entire race represent an existing ideology. Let alone for the rather obvious reason that Fascism is deeply unappealing (to say the least).
Though to their credit, the Cardassians themselves showed a lot more variety and disagreement with said philosophy than any other race. Other than K'ehlyr, for instance, did we ever see a Klingon who thought the whole honor shtick was stupid?

And at least in THEIR case, the monoculture thing made sense--I mean, that was one HELL of an oppressive government they had, more than anything else we ever saw. (Someday, Thor, when you get PM privileges, I should tell you why it is the guys all style their hair alike...at least in my own version of events.) But in a lot of the other cases...it makes none at all.

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
What's equally interesting about the Cardassians is that they are the ONLY Alpha Quadrant Emprie in which we are shown one of their subject races. Bajor and the occupation have been a big reason why the Cardassians seem much more complex. We've NEVER seen one of the Klingon or Romulan conquered worlds (and we know that they must exist since the Federation is constantly finding inhabited worlds in its own space (plus we saw the Klingons attempt to woo worlds into their camp back in TOS). How much more interesting might the Klingons be if we saw them through the eyes of other races that were incorporated into the Empire.
Why didn't they do that? Because if they went there, then people might actually start questioning the Klingon-Federation alliance! (And well they should have, if you ask me!)
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Old February 8 2009, 04:45 PM   #38
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "Fascist vibe" aspect of the Cardassians, I never though it was cool and it seems to be a common failing in Star Trek to have an entire race represent an existing ideology. Let alone for the rather obvious reason that Fascism is deeply unappealing (to say the least).
Dukat did over see the occupation of Bajor which saw the deaths of Millions of Bajorians so any "reforms" that he undertook could not forgive his crimes as the perfect of Bajor.

As for the Vulcans I do not find them very interesting at all. Now, as for their sundered cousins...
Wait - the Cardies are bad but the ROMULANS are ok? As to the Fascist vibe, it's cool to have that element in the show, rather than just being TOLD Race X is bad, to see a race actually paralleling Earth regimes (militarism, secret police): that's a nice touch! And I don't think I said Dukat's reforms or sheltering of some Bajorans "forgave" what he did. It's just that if he's telling the truth when he self-justifies, he actually might have done some good things, compared to what he was ordered to do. I just like that moral ambiguity, which other people have commented on, rather than just "Race-X is bad."
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Old February 8 2009, 07:21 PM   #39
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

plynch wrote: View Post
Thor Damar wrote: View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "Fascist vibe" aspect of the Cardassians, I never though it was cool and it seems to be a common failing in Star Trek to have an entire race represent an existing ideology. Let alone for the rather obvious reason that Fascism is deeply unappealing (to say the least).
Dukat did over see the occupation of Bajor which saw the deaths of Millions of Bajorians so any "reforms" that he undertook could not forgive his crimes as the perfect of Bajor.

As for the Vulcans I do not find them very interesting at all. Now, as for their sundered cousins...
Wait - the Cardies are bad but the ROMULANS are ok? As to the Fascist vibe, it's cool to have that element in the show, rather than just being TOLD Race X is bad, to see a race actually paralleling Earth regimes (militarism, secret police): that's a nice touch! And I don't think I said Dukat's reforms or sheltering of some Bajorans "forgave" what he did. It's just that if he's telling the truth when he self-justifies, he actually might have done some good things, compared to what he was ordered to do. I just like that moral ambiguity, which other people have commented on, rather than just "Race-X is bad."
Yeah, I agree with what you have said but I think that having an entire culture represent one particular Human ideology isn't very healthy, I mean look at the Ferengi. Fortunately the Cardassians have outgrown this aspect of their characterization.

I have never argued that the Cardassians are bad, in fact they are one of my favorite fictional races precisely because of their moral ambiguities. And with Dukat I was trying to avoid any accusations of a pro-Dukat bias in my writings which has lead to me misreading your post, for which I apologise. As DS9 fans I think we can all agree that Dukat's capticy for Self delusion is legendary. (The actor who portrayed Dukat seriously thought that Dukat was the real hero of Deep Space Nine)
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Old February 8 2009, 07:26 PM   #40
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Also on the subject of the various subject races of the Empires, there has been one other subject race shown onscreen, The Remans.
Several Klingon subject races have been mentioned in Trek Lit but not elaborated upon, alas!
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Old February 8 2009, 08:05 PM   #41
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

To answer the headline question?

Oh yes, you betcha.

And the Bajorans are the most boring.
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Old February 8 2009, 08:14 PM   #42
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

MorganScorpion wrote: View Post

And the Bajorans are the most boring.
Agreed, yet some are so cute.


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Star...



Turk?!?


Just messin. No, they got alot of face time for sure,
but I found the Romulans far more interesting.

Oops my bad on the spelling!

Scrubs does Star Trek, good idea or not?
As for the Romulans I will be discussing them Anon
I would so watch that.
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Old February 8 2009, 09:39 PM   #43
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

MorganScorpion wrote: View Post
To answer the headline question?

Oh yes, you betcha.

And the Bajorans are the most boring.
I completely disagree. The Bajorans are total opposites to the Cardassians (or are they, as much as it seems?), yet are to me the second most compelling race in the Trekiverse after the Cardassians. Rarely do I ever see the aspect of faith tackled in such a well-rounded way, showcasing the bad AND the good of it--especially in sci-fi.
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Old March 8 2009, 04:39 PM   #44
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I know this is a bit late but I have decided to take this essay in a slightly different direction. Below is my introduction to this new essay. I hope that you enjoy it and all comments and suggestions are eagerly accepted!)

Why the Cardassians?

The purpose of this essay is to establish the reasons why the Cardassians enjoy such a respectable fanbase and what this means for the Trekverse in general. I will be using my own interpretations and opinions in this essay in the hope that this would inspire some debate on this subject.
One of the main problems with being a cardassian fan is reconciling any interest or affection for the Cardassians with their canonal appearances and perceived modus operandi as established in TNG, DS9 and VGR. In TNG the Cardassians are a race of brutal deceitful conquerors that utilise torture as a means of getting intelligence and work to undermine the heroic Federation at every turn. (However the first ever Cardassian episode the wounded paints an intriguing and ultimately redeeming portrayal of the Cardassian people. I will discuss this is more depth below). Deep Space Nine has the most interaction with the Cardassians in any trek series so most of what we know about the Union and its people is gathered from the many brilliant episodes that make DS9 trek’s greatest series. With VGR this portrait takes a dip back into the lazy negative stereotypes of the Cardassians though the characters of Seska and Crell moset , I would argue that Nothing Human has one of the worst and most ill timed examination of the Cardassian psyche, coming as it does during the awesome Final Chapter of DS9.
All three star trek series and their examination of the Cardassians will be explored in more depth later on in this essay. I will also be looking at Union politics, culture and their military. My aim is to establish just why the Cardassians hold such a special place in the annuals of Science Fiction.

(NB I hopefully plan to write quite a long essay on this subject so rather than make one very long post I will post a number of smaller essays on each particular aspect of the Cardassians. )
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Old March 8 2009, 05:17 PM   #45
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Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

plynch wrote: View Post
Amen to Thor Damar! Klingons are simply stupid. "You have offended me. I fight you." They'd never get anywhere that way, always infighting. Cardassians were the closest to having a fascist vibe, too, which is a cool feel, even the way they stand.

Garak is my favorite Trek character ever, and I'd even nominate pre-Pagh Dukat as one of my top-3. When he gets into self-justifying mode, not only does he believe it, but if some of what he says is true, he actually did do some good, spare some Bajorans, while occupying them. Kira is unable to consider that. He is simply "bad" to her; this sets up one of the "good guys" (Kira) actually being morally blindered (a bit), though of course she had her reasons.

Post-ers have all commented on villain races. What about Vulcans?
Your last line: What about Vulcans? Really good question. The Vulcans strike me as a paternalistic, conceited, and secretive people. In TOS, Spock is reticent of revealing Vulcan culture. In "Amok Time" Kirk was tricked into a fight to the death. Why? Spock's intended wanted to run off with another guy. In ENT, Earth could explore only if the Vulcans allowed it. They seemed quite an officious species. Who do these Vulcans think they are? Thor Damar may want to add that the Romulans' qualities of secretiveness and bossiness are not far from the Vulcans'(much as both races would hate to admit it).
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